Episode Description

This episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, talks with Life Stage Pastor, George Palombo, about some topics related to intersex people, transgenderism, how we should respond these ideas as Christians and how to love people struggling with them.

Podcast Transcript

Kurt Bjorklund: Hi, welcome. Today on Ask a Pastor, I'm joined by George Palombo, my friend and coworker here at Orchard Hill. George works as one of our life stage pastors. Welcome George.

George Palombo: Good to be here.

Kurt Bjorklund: Today we have several questions we'd love to address. So George, the first question is long and is in some ways challenging, in other ways maybe not challenging. Probably depends where somebody sits on the issue. Here's how the question reads.

Kurt Bjorklund: There are a lot of controversy in the church ... I think they mean there is a lot of controversy in the church over transgender individuals. Scripture seems clear that God made us male and female in the image of God. However, what does the Bible say or would Christian counsel say to an individual who's born intersex, having both male and female parts? Would guy consider a person born intersex male or female? If they choose to have reconstructive surgery as a child but feel much different as an adult, what would the council be to that person? Would their sexual complimentary counterpart be male or female?

Kurt Bjorklund: You keeping all this straight? George Palombo: I've got it all together, yes.

Kurt Bjorklund: You're ready to just ... okay.

George Palombo: I've got bullet points.

Kurt Bjorklund: I'll read all of this. Then we can jump into it.

George Palombo: Okay.

Kurt Bjorklund: Would you consider intersex individuals born that way as a result of the fall? I'm reminded about what God said to Moses, "Who gave human beings their mouth? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" or would you say these people would be described as eunuchs, made the way of Matthew 19:12? How does this topic fit into conversation about transgenderism within the church?

Kurt Bjorklund: So George, help us think about intersex, which is different from transgender individuals, and how the Bible sees that, and what we need to consider with that.

George Palombo: If you don't mind-

Kurt Bjorklund: Absolutely.

George Palombo: I'm just going to look at this question- Kurt Bjorklund: Absolutely.

George Palombo: In the sense that, yeah, scripture seems clear that God made us male and female. You know, the scriptures are clear in the book of Genesis on that, on that topic.

George Palombo: However, what does the Bible say would be the counsel to an individual who is born intersex, having both male and female parts? I would say that, I mean at least to begin the conversation, is that it's pretty clear that there is male and female. I think the idea perhaps of going down the road of transgender and fitting transgender into the idea of intersex almost begins to assume that intersex means that it would be an idea of extra sex. That there would be ... if there's more than two sexes because of the idea of intersex, that there's this whole broad spectrum of sexes. I think biologically we even know that that clearly is just not the case.

Kurt Bjorklund: Right. What's insightful about this question is it is drawing the line between transgender and intersex saying, okay, the Bible does affirm male and femaleness, which would challenge the current cultural idea of transgenderism.

George Palombo: Sure.

Kurt Bjorklund: But when somebody is born with genitalia that could go both ways, which is a known phenomenon, it's very rare but it is something that does happen, then how does the Bible see that person, male or female, if there's only those two categories, and then what is that person's opposite? So how would you, if somebody came to you and that was their situation or they had a child who was born that way, what would you say to them from a biblical understanding about how they were to see their sexuality, and then what would be proper in terms of their sexuality in terms of surgery or anything of that nature?

George Palombo: Even that, the question you just asked is really loaded. There's just so much there. You know, Jesus did make comments about eunuchs and those who are either born that way or they were made that way through torture or whatever happened. I think that there's a biological question even inside of that in that our sex is something that is determined. Our gender, the idea of being gender neutral or cross gendering is a pretty new phenomena. I think it goes back to the 40s or 50s when that became a real concept.

George Palombo: But I think when we confront somebody, we need to be really careful to love them, especially if parents have a child who is born with a condition, that we ought to be very caring. I think sometimes the church and in these circumstances just waves a hand and says that it is what it is. God made them male and female, and people can walk away with struggles that we have not really carefully cared for pastorally.

George Palombo: So I think there's a long conversation, and I think part of that goes to the idea that we can't help the way that a person feels. If someone walked into us right now and said they feel like a hippopotamus, I mean we can't argue that they're feeling that way. But I think as Christians we have to at least submit ourselves to say that God's Word has something to say about our feelings and that where are we directed when it comes to our feelings. Are we to submit to our feelings about the way something is, or do we go to God's Word and where is our worldview forged out of that?

Kurt Bjorklund: That's a good word, especially on the transgender issue. I think, again, this question is driving at somebody who biologically is born with some disparate information about their gender.

George Palombo: Yes.

Kurt Bjorklund: Therefore making it not necessarily about their feelings, how they feel about what sex they are, but about the reality that they, from a genetic standpoint, don't have as clear a map as some others. So again, if you were in that situation, somebody came in and said, "Pastor George, help us think about this biblically. We have a child who was born with this situation," where would you point them? How would you help them think about it?

George Palombo: Again, I would say to them, I would say, well clearly God has made male and female. And again-

Kurt Bjorklund: But then they might push back and say, "Not in this instance."

George Palombo: Yeah. Even the biology, which is evolution ... I did bring one thing to read from. Even from an evolutionary biologist, he made this comment. His name is Colin Wright and he says this. Evolutionary biologist, and I know we'll get back to the scriptural idea. Rejecting the idea that sex is a spectrum mantra with clear reasoning, he says ... Again, this is an evolutionary biologist. "A spectrum implies a continuous distribution and maybe even an amodal one in which no specific outcome is more likely than others. Biological sex in humans, however, is clear cut over 99.98% and would place it among the most precise methods in all of the life sciences. We revise medical care practices and change world economic plans on far lower confidence than that."

George Palombo: I mean that God did create us with a specific sex that not only deals with our genitalia but also other parts of our bodies. Our brains have a sex. Every molecule and every cell in our bodies has a sex that it's not something ... so those things can be determined at birth. Now when if we look down at ourselves or ...I thought about this on the way in and thought what a struggle it would be to look down and have a set of breasts. I mean that would be a real struggle. It would be an emotional struggle that we have to contend with, and then I would have to ask myself, where will I take my cues as to what my gender is? Will I go to God's Word and find there that we are created male and female in his image, or will I take my feelings and say, "But I feel differently in this issue"? Then it becomes a worldview. Do we take our cues from what God has said, or do we take our cues from the way we feel?

Kurt Bjorklund: So what I'm hearing you say is if somebody said, "Hey, this is my child. This is my situation," that you would still give the counsel or thought based on the Word of God that says Genesis 1, God created them male and female, so there's two categories. That's how God created. Then your evolutionary biologist saying this is such a small percentage that even if there's not 100% clarity, there's still a dominant gender that most people are born with. Therefore, go with that is almost what I'm hearing you say.

Kurt Bjorklund: In a lot of cases, one of the things I think people like to do, and I'm not saying this question is that, but is we like to take the most extreme example and then try to reason backwards to what should be normative for everything, when what we should do is probably go the other way and say what is normative and now how does that apply to the most extreme example. This is probably a case of that where this situation where even if it's 1%, or whatever percent that is, doesn't have to define the rest of how things are seen, but that 1% should be seen through the lens of how everything else is. But is that a fair interpretation of what you're saying?

George Palombo: It is. For sure it is. Again, this is a voluminous question. I mean to answer everything that's in there and to say how would we handle someone who walked into one of our offices in 15 minutes, I certainly wouldn't expect-

Kurt Bjorklund: That you'd have it done in 15 minutes, right.

George Palombo: Surely we wouldn't have it done in 15 minutes. This person would require, I think, the love and care of the church. I would go on to even say that if someone comes in and is combative about what God's Word has to say, I don't ... What do we do with a person who's combative and says, "Well, this is my situation. I don't care what God's Word ...," as opposed to someone who comes in and says, "I'm struggling. I know what God's Word says, and I'm willing to submit to God's Word, but here's the reality of what I'm contending with today"? I think counseling that person becomes a very different scenario than the person who just says, "I take my cues from ..."

George Palombo: The scriptures tell us we walk by faith as believers. So whatever God's Word has to say, I want to submit in faith to what God's Word has to say, not to create my own scenario where I walk according to my own feelings, even my own body parts.

Kurt Bjorklund: Right.

George Palombo: Because even my ... Any other body part can be obscured. It's not only the genitalia that can be obscured at birth. Children are born without arms. Children are born with their innards on the outside of their body. We're not born perfect, in a perfect world.

George Palombo: I would even go on to say that the studies that I've looked at in preparing for this have shown that people who even have a surgery contrary to their biological sex, later on when they are asked if they have ... if they are glad that they had that surgery, almost none of them say, "Yes, I'm so glad." They also don't say, "I wished I hadn't done it." They're just okay with it. That it hasn't made any tremendous change in their life.

Kurt Bjorklund: Didn't change the way they felt about themselves.

George Palombo: Almost across the board, it does-

Kurt Bjorklund: Interesting.

George Palombo: There's no change. No one says, "My life and everything about it has just become dramatically better." There just was no change.

Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, so maybe a way just to help us kind of ... As you said, there's a lot here to digest. It says this. What does the Bible say or would a Christian counsel say to an individual who's born intersex? I think we answered that. Would you consider a person born intersex male or female? I think we answered that saying you go with whatever is most dominant and it's pretty minuscule. If they chose to have reconstructive surgery as a child but feel much differently as an adult, what would your counsel to that person be?

George Palombo: I think that's a good question. I think that's a fair question to ask. I think I would answer to that person, again, if this was someone who came in and said, "I had a sex change operation as a child that was in the opposite direction of what my biological sex was," I would probably sit and love that person, and show compassion to that person, and say, "I don't think I would encourage you in one way or the other, but if you chose to have an operation to go back to the way God created you, I would certainly affirm that with you along with you."

Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. Then they said, would their sexual complimentary counterpart be male or female? Well, if they've gone with their dominant gender, then that becomes clear.

George Palombo: Yes.

Kurt Bjorklund: Would you consider intersex individuals to born that way as a result of the fall or are they born more in the category of eunuchs? That was ... which is actually a good theological question.

George Palombo: It is.

Kurt Bjorklund: Because what they're saying is if it's a result of the fall, then maybe it's a different category than if it is something that God designed from the beginning.

George Palombo: Yes. Again, not an easy ... There's just no easy, simplistic answer that everyone's going to sit and go ... I mean, we're not going to have the last word on this. Even if we read a myriad of things from biologists and micro and macro biologists, no one's going to offer the final word because people are going to deal with their feelings, and the way that they are receiving, and what the culture has to say about these things. Again, I would just say that I don't think Jesus minced words when he referred to eunuchs. I think it's in Matthew, Matthew 5. He talked about eunuchs and those who are mutilated or those who choose not to marry.

Kurt Bjorklund: Just define eunuch for somebody who maybe isn't familiar with the phrase or concept.

George Palombo: Someone who is not able to, either not able to propagate through self-mutilation, mutilation from torture, or someone who simply chooses to.

Kurt Bjorklund: So in Bible times, what would happen is sometimes people would rise to a place where they would care for the harem of a king and they would be mutilated so that they would never be able to have relations with any of the women in the harem, and that was a phrase, eunuch.

George Palombo: Right.

Kurt Bjorklund: Then there are some who appear to have been born that way, some who chose that-

George Palombo: Chose it, right.

Kurt Bjorklund: As a course of action. Okay. So are you saying that it's pre-fall or post-fall or not entirely sure.

George Palombo: I would say that it really wouldn't matter. Not that it doesn't matter that someone's born intersex. I would say that-

Kurt Bjorklund: whether it was pre-fall or post-fall.

George Palombo: Yes.

Kurt Bjorklund: Okay.

George Palombo: In that sense, we would minister to someone the exact same way, unless it's something they chose to do. If I chose to be a eunuch, Jesus says that some choose t do that for the sake of the kingdom of God.

Kurt Bjorklund: Right.

George Palombo: So do they need ministered to? I would say probably not.

Kurt Bjorklund: Right.

George Palombo: This is a choice that they made intentionally. But for those who did not make that choice intentionally, I would say that we would love them, we would encourage them to stay in God's Word, that they would take their cues about their feelings. Again, this even goes ... I think this goes even beyond into the idea of someone who chooses to be homosexual and says, "Well, I can't help it, even though God's Word says something differently." That becomes a different pastoral challenge to us to speak truth into their life, because truth, the truth matters. But if someone comes in, and again they're hostile, the truth just simply doesn't matter to them and they will choose to do what they choose to do based on their preference.

Kurt Bjorklund: Right. Yeah, and that's a whole nother conversation.

George Palombo: Yes.

Kurt Bjorklund: I think what's behind this question when somebody asks this, is this a result of the fall or was this God's design, is usually the reason that question is asked, and I think you hit on this as well with the homosexual issue, if I'm born a certain way, then I feel as if, what can I do about this? This is who God made me to be. It should be embraced rather than not embraced. At least on that issue, that tends to be. So I think what's being asked here is if this is not God's design, then maybe they get a chance to reconstruct in a way that they want to or to embrace it as it is, is kind of the question, which is actually the opposite of how that's often thought about from a homosexual standpoint.

Kurt Bjorklund: The thing that I would say to that, and I think your impulse is right to say I'm not sure that ultimately that's the question we need to answer here, because the real issue becomes in many ways what gender was I born with, and then how do I live out those implications today? How this relates to transgenderism, which is one of the questions here, is that we're living in a time in which people, and you used the example of the hippopotamus, want to say, "I can imagine or decide my gender." This isn't something that is part of the way God created human beings. It's a cultural concept. We just have different genitals.

George Palombo: Sure.

Kurt Bjorklund: That's it, different procreation. I think biblically, not just in Genesis but throughout the pages of the Bible, we would say no, there is a distinction between men and women. God has made people to be complimentary across the board, so gender still does matter. To just wake up one day and say, "I want to be different than I am," is to go against our nature.

Kurt Bjorklund: Maybe here's a way to think about it, and I know that this will be not well received by modern culture in terms of how people see this, but if I woke up one day and said, "You know, I think I want to be Asian-American. I feel Asian," you'd laugh at me. If I woke up and said, "I feel like I'm black," people would say, "Well, you can't just decide that you're black because you feel like you are."

George Palombo: Sure.

Kurt Bjorklund: I'm a white male. There's no way around the fact that I'm white, and maleness is very similar to whiteness in that sense. Now again, I know some people would say, well, gender isn't the same as race, and race is a different concept and all of that. But my point is there are certain things about us that that are just a reality of how we came into the world, that God created us. Again, that flies in the face of culture, but I think that's how this ties into transgenderism.

George Palombo: I would say this too, and this isn't to flatter Orchard Hill Church or our senior pastor, but I think one thing that's unique about what we do around here is we are patient with people. If someone came in and had a real struggle and they clearly outside of the bounds of scripture, if somebody comes in and they're reasonable, we are going to love them. We're going to welcome them into this community and share the gospel of Jesus Christ and hope that the concept of truth from God's Word is something that begins to take root in their heart. Because I think only then are people able to make sound biblical decisions not only about their identity, but about who they are, and the people that they respond to, or the people they work with, or the people that ...

George Palombo: I've always used the illustration, and I know this is off topic, but my temptations aren't to be a drug addict. I could walk around with 100 pounds of cocaine in my backpack and never be tempted to use it, but that's not the same for everybody else. We have unique temptations, and I think even in this respect some people are simply tempted to identify, to make their entire identity something that it is not, because it gives them some feeling or it meets some need that only Christ can meet in their life.

Kurt Bjorklund: That's well put. We're going to leave it there. If you have questions for Ask a Pastor, please feel free to send them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com. Thanks for spending part of your day with this content.