Welcome to Walking in Worship, a podcast from Orchard Hill Music, where our goal is to journey towards a deeper understanding of what christian worship really is. New episodes periodically on Monday!

This episode, Dan Shields, Chris Jamison and David Bowens sit down to continue their conversation about chapter 2 of Zach Neese's book, "How to Worship a King". Follow the link below to purchase Zach's book and follow along with our discussion.

Link to buy the book - https://amzn.to/2tVxF6P

If you enjoy the podcast, leave us a 5 star review so more people can be blessed by this content. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode!

Podcast Transcript

Dan Shields: Hello everyone, and welcome to Walking In Worship. My name is Dan Shields. I'm a worship pastor here at Orchard Hill Church.

Chris Jamison: My name is Chris Jamison. I'm a worship leader here at Orchard Hill Church as well.

David Bowens: My name is David Bowens, and I am also a worship leader here at Orchard Hill Church.

Dan Shields: And this Walking in Worship Podcast is designed just to help all of us grow in our faith and understanding of what worship really is.

Dan Shields: Hello everyone, and welcome back to Walking in Worship. Today we're going to jump into chapter two of the book, How to Worship a King by Zach Neese. Last episodes we went through chapter one, so if you're just catching up with us you might want to go back through and listen to some of that content. But it's good to have you here with us.

Dan Shields: So we're going to just jump right in to the discussion questions at the end of the chapter, this is one page 23. And this chapter is talking about our identity as priests and the body of Christ. It's called So What Do I Do Now? And the first question says this. "Priests steward places for God to meet with people. For the Levites," that's the Old Testament priesthood, "This meant caring for the tabernacle." That was the place of meeting. "You, however, are a living tabernacle. How then does your responsibility of stewardship differ from that of the Levitical priesthood?"

Dan Shields: So obviously we're called priests unto God, and there was a picture of the priesthood in the Old Testament, it was a very complex system where you had one tribe out of the twelve tribes, the Levites who had no inheritance of the land and they were to be priests unto God. And the question here then is, we're obviously priests, but how does our priesthood look different than the priesthood that's in the Old Testament? How do we as New Testament worshipers act or engage with God in a different way than the Old Testament priests?

Chris Jamison: I think the obvious one would be the fact that we're not necessarily working on like a physical tabernacle, which was their responsibilities, were to like take care of upkeep, transfer, pretty much I kind of envision like a roadie on a big band tour, where like their job is to go from city to city and they're setting this thing up, tearing it down, preparing it, knowing all of the different rituals and things that need to occur. Obviously today we don't necessarily have that as much, but in a way we kind of have more than that because we are ... I mean, it talks about here like walking, living sacrifices. Everywhere we go we now have the opportunity to like come into the presence of God, and share with people, and all of that stuff.

Chris Jamison: So as opposed to a physical building, we kind of are that physical building. I feel like we embody that now, and our job is simply to ... I don't know, share the ... make disciples of all nations, share the good news. Am I off?

David Bowens: No-

Dan Shields: No, I think that's right.

Chris Jamison: Okay.

Dan Shields: Just to clarify what he's saying, here on page 10, that's really good stuff. He says this, "And what's your job as a priest?" Well this one's easy. It's to set up the meeting place between God and the people. And he's talking about us as worship leaders, specifically.

Chris Jamison: I should have just read that. I don't know why ... I've over here trying to figure out how to say it, it's literally the first line you read.

Dan Shields: He said, "As a priest, you're ordained to carry the meeting place with you." That's why first Peter 2.5 says that, "You're being built into a spiritual house, you've become a walking, breathing tabernacle, a spiritual house, a meeting place for God and his people. What an honor." And then he says this, "In other words, when you're a priest, every place you go becomes a spot where you have an opportunity to meet with God." Where people have an opportunity to meet with God.

Dan Shields: So David, you often talk about being present with God, not just in worship, but in general. How do you think this plays out in our day to day life, being priests unto God, and then how does it look on stage, when we step foot on our stage and lead people in worship?

David Bowens: Well, in our life I think it's intention to communing with God first. Which he speaks about in this book as well. In this chapter, specifically. And I'm realizing even now, myself, how much that affects everything else you do. I think that the intention to communing with God, and then from that time and that space being intentional about finding God in all things, acknowledging him in all things, and doing all things as unto the Lord, which the word of God calls us to do all of those things. And which we can, I believe, stay in a constant state of worship, in a constant state of ministering to God, and the constant state of ... which is what we're called ... which he says in this book, which I like the way he said it, because I've never really looked at it that way, but he says that we're called to minister to God first. We were made for God first and for his glory. And then after that, connecting, being the meeting places for his people.

David Bowens: So if we minister to God first, then we become, I believe, accurate expressions of who God wants us to be in a way that so when people do encounter us, we are accurate meeting places for them and God. If that makes sense.

Dan Shields: Yeah, and he sort of ... in the New Testament you see some blending of metaphor too, because we're priests unto God it says in Peter, and obviously one of the jobs that a priest had is to offer sacrifices-

David Bowens: Yeah.

Dan Shields: But then it talks about in Romans 12.1 and 2 that we're to be living sacrifices unto God, wholly and pleasing. And this is our spiritual act of worship. So our spiritual act of worship in some ways is laying down our wills, who we are-

David Bowens: Yeah.

Dan Shields: And really being obedient to God. It talks about our love for God in John 14.21, that we see our love for God out of obedience for Christ, being again that living sacrifice, bow on our knee before him, you know?

David Bowens: Yes, sir.

Chris Jamison: Yeah, which in a way leads right into that third question where it talks about how would our churches and world change if we focused on ministering to God instead of people. And I think that begs the question of like ... not begs the question, but that is kind of the weird dynamic that I think churches operate under, is you need to be pointing people to God, but in order to keep the lights on in the building, in order to staff the church and be able to have the functionality of the building and the place, you obviously need to get people as well. And so you sometimes can, I think, the focus becomes ministering to the people first, and then ministering to God, whereas what he's saying in the book is we need to minister to God, and then minister to the people.

Chris Jamison: But how do you like ... what is that ... that's such an interesting dynamic. Like how do you navigate finding the balance between ministering to God and ministering to the people?

Dan Shields: You know, it's a challenge ... just the first part of that question I'd say, we are a living sacrifice unto God, and part of the priest's job is to sacrifice. And it talks about in Hebrews 13.15 that we're to bring a sacrifice of praise, so certainly part of our sacrifice is that worship to God, being able to lay ourselves down before him, focus our eyes on him, and in a sense minister to him, to glorify, to magnify him. But in the other sense, we are gathered together, and we are human beings who have our preferences and our likes and our dislikes. And we are, as we're on stage, also trying to engage people, and it really ... it's very similar to the question that we've talked about many times before in this group. What is performance, and what is worship on stage? Because we are performers on stage, no matter how you slice it. We're not getting up in our PJs in front of people, we're not ... there's lights on and there's cameras on, and we're trying to engage with people. And we are trying to play notes right and sing notes right, and get the arrangements right, and do things that are pleasing to people. But really, our ultimate responsibility is really aiming all of those things towards God. So how do you deal with that tension, David, where would you see how that plays out on our stage on the weekends?

David Bowens: I guess I'm going to take a few steps back, just even back to almost the original question in terms of ministering to God first. When I see that, it makes me think of our individual time we spend with God. Because I think I've said and even Denise said it a few times, how can you take people somewhere you haven't been in worship? And I think that speaks to what is presented on stage. And what I mean by that is the time that we spend when no one's looking, the time that we spend seeking God for ourselves, loving on God by ourselves, the time that we spend intentionally ministering to God individually, when we gather together I think God provides ... when we minister to him, he provides, I feel, so much more of himself for us to access. Individually, based on the time you spent ministering, giving to him, loving on him, sacrificing your life, your time, your prayer, your tears, your seeking him in his word. Because he wants us to be in communion with him, he wants us to be in relationship with him, and walk with him closely.

David Bowens: I think the people who did that the most were the people who were seemingly the most effective in the Bible. And one of them he just took, he was like, "Man," he walked with him until he wasn't. Boom, like, "I'm taking him with me." One of the prophets, was it Elijah? Or it's shuh?

Dan Shields: Oh, yeah, Elijah, yeah.

David Bowens: And so he took him just ... and that just spoke to the communion that they had. It was so powerful, and so real, and so close and intimate, you know what I mean? That from my perspective, he's like, "Oh man, come on, you going with me." Like you know what I mean?

Dan Shields: Right, yeah.

David Bowens: Like you know what I'm saying? Like you ever had somebody that's like, "Man, that's my guy." And it's because you all just sat and just had time with each other and spent time loving on each other through just getting to know one another. And the beauty of that is the moment you get to know God, the greater he is before us. And then the more time we spend with God, the more often that lens is what we look through. And it changes everything that we see and how we see everything, because he's constantly correcting us, constantly correcting what we see. And because he's constantly correcting what we see, we begin to be convicted by what does not feel like it's pleasing to him, but also encouraged to do what is. And it becomes more natural because of the time we've spent getting to know him, ministering to him first. So then when we come together, how we communicate that from stage ... it'll be a more direct feeling as to how should I say this? How should I sing thing? How often God drops ideas into your heart to share for the people. And I think that comes from ministering to God alone, individually.

David Bowens: And then when we come together, what that looks like, I believe is amplified because of the time spent ministering to God.

Chris Jamison: And essentially when we come together, you're still ministering-

David Bowens: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: To God.

David Bowens: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: It's not the mindset of like ...

Dan Shields: It's the same outpouring, yeah.

Chris Jamison: Oh, I'm ministering at home but then I come here and perform, it's like no-

Dan Shields: Right.

David Bowens: No.

Chris Jamison: Essentially taking that ministering that you're doing on your own every single day-

David Bowens: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: All the hours, all the time you're spending, whether it's in prayer or reading the word or whatever it is. And then you're just coming to church and you're continuing-

David Bowens: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: You're ministering to God.

David Bowens: Yeah. And I think the intention is of course you're still now as the lead worshiper or worship leader, however you want to say it ... the intention is encourage people to go with you because you know there are varying levels of it, and so you're trying to speak to everyone in the room to help them remember and understand what these moments are about. But at the same time, you also know because certain people aren't at certain spaces doing music that is more their preference helps. Doing stuff that may ... I understand the psychology behind why you pick the songs you pick for the rooms you're in, I think that's wisdom. However, it cannot be more important than ministering to God first, and I think that's where-

Chris Jamison: Because ultimately the reason ... the purpose behind the choices that you make when you're preparing to lead worship, you're doing that, that should be in ministering to God, you're doing that through ministering to God, so you're doing that in prayer, you're doing that in-

David Bowens: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: Just wisdom, and understanding, and trying to figure out, okay, how is this best going to minister to God when we're on stage, when we're worshiping in this giant room.

David Bowens: And then I also think we think need to trust that what God puts in our heart to do, even if it doesn't seem always ... like, "I don't know if this will work or not." We have to trust what God puts in our heart to do, that he knows that will work, that he knows that even ministering, and especially if you've been spending time ministering to God and in his presence and seeking him, if God has dropped something in your heart, trust it and go forward with it 100%. Of course with the okay of leadership, it's not something that you just do randomly out of nowhere, I think there's still an order to things that God wants us to follow, but at the same time be willing to bring those things to the table, share those things, and push forward with those things.

David Bowens: Because I think we can get ... and ourselves included, can get in just a comfortable habit of running the same feel of things, doing things the same way, not really breaking the routine because you're scared that if you break this routine, then the people will revolt. And you don't know what's going to happen. But if you feel like this is something that God has placed in your heart to do, to help push, grow, encourage growth in the people and our understanding of worship, then I think these are things that we should definitely push forward into in terms of leading people into that.

Dan Shields: Yeah, I think that first step though, being about us learning that posture of worship in our own lives, in all areas of our lives, submission to God, and digging into the word prayer, actually worshiping on our own ... I mean, as worshipers, we should be worshiping. And that's something I find myself not doing enough of. I do a lot of music preparation, but sometimes I forget to just engage with the worship.

Dan Shields: I remember years ago I saw Israel Houghton was speaking and he was saying ... and this was after he had won multiple Grammy's and Dove Awards and was really at the top of the charts in CCM music, and he said when he was young, before he really started, he had this little tiny apartment all by himself, and he used to just set up a keyboard and he would set up a congregation of cans, just like put the cans out there, and he would lead those cans in worship. But he said it was a really special time of him really, honestly engaging with worship.

David Bowens: Yeah.

Dan Shields: And he said after he'd won all these Grammy's and stuff, he was just praying one day and he felt like the Lord said, "Do you remember when you used to lead worship to those cans? That worship was much more pleasing to me than what you're doing now. You've gotten off the rails and you've turned it into something that it was never supposed to be, it was never about you, it was never about the awards, it was never about how many records you sold, or how packed the place was, how you led ... it ultimately is about you worshiping me, and you've lost that track. And I'd like you to get back to your first love, which is me." That's an important thing.

Dan Shields: And I think also as we do that, we had talked I think last time a little bit about how, like you said, David, you can't lead where you're not going. You just can't do that. And I was mentioning how in World War II when they were storming the beaches of Normandy they said the most important people, they had trained the soldiers really well, so the soldiers were ready to roll, but it was the officers that they felt were the most important people. And the officers were the people who said, "Follow me." So when the bullets were flying and the guys were cowering on the beaches, they were the guys who stood up and waved people on and said, "Follow me." And they had high casualties, but they were the ones that got the people out and got them moving.

Dan Shields: And so as we go in and press into the real worship of God, where it really is engaged worship, where we're really present and we're lifting our hearts up and engaging with God, then we can really say to the people, "Follow me. Come after me."

Chris Jamison: There was a part in here where it talked about ministering to God versus ministering to people, and I'll just read it, it's this paragraph on 14 at the top. "I'll never forget the day I was in a worship service at a small town church. The musicianship was bad, the singing was bad, the leadership was bad, and the song selection was bad. Everything was bad. The people couldn't even clap on time. And as I stood there snarkily critiquing every aspect of the service in my mind, I felt a hand shove against my chest. It pushed so hard that it rocked me back on my heels. I don't like to be touched that way and I took offense to it, so when I looked down to see whose hand was on my chest, ready to share some stern words with him, I was surprised to find that that there was no hand. No one was touching me. Even so, I could feel the hand and all five fingers pressing against my chest. It was a strong, solid hand. Then I heard a voice inside me say, 'That is not yours to judge. That is mine.'

Chris Jamison: An experience like that tends to adjust a fellow's attitude. And I never forgot the lesson. Worship belongs to God. It is not about my tastes, or preferences, it is not mine to judge."

Chris Jamison: As a musician, when I walk in ... yeah, that whole paragraph, when I walk in-

David Bowens: Yes.

Chris Jamison: I have to catch myself all the time, because-

David Bowens: Yes.

Chris Jamison: If your instrument is to play guitar, your instrument is to sing, your instrument is to play bass, when you go into a worship service, you can't help but sit there and listen more closely to the vocalists, listen more closely-

David Bowens: For sure.

Chris Jamison: To the guitarists. And then, sinfully, sit there and be like, "Oh no, I wouldn't have played that. Oh, he hit that bad note." Instead of like, no, why are you here? We're here to worship God, we're not here to sit here and critique whether or not that gentleman is playing the right note or not.

David Bowens: Yes.

Chris Jamison: And there's a line between obviously you ... when you have people on stage or whatever, you don't want to be a distraction in worship. But at the same time, there's people of all different levels, of all different ... yeah, just levels of capability, and if that's what that church has, then that is worship to God as much as ... I don't know, Tauren Wells being on stage-

Dan Shields: Right, right.

Chris Jamison: Worshiping God, or some big time ... Jonathan McReynolds, awesome vocalist. It's just as much worship as the voice of ... I always say Jonathan McReynolds because his voice is like a warm stick of butter, but ... you know what I mean.

Dan Shields: Well, you know, there's two things-

Chris Jamison: It's all about humility.

Dan Shields: Yeah, it does say to play skillfully before the Lord in Psalm 33 so we are to do the best we can with the craft we have, but the reality ultimately is this, we might be impressed with Jonathan's voice, or we might be impressed by certain ... Lincoln Brewster's guitar playing or something like that. But there's a certain reality that God the creator of the universe, who created the craft of music, who understands music far beyond what we could ever think or imagine if we studied all of our lifetime, is not all that impressed with our musical capabilities. He hears far better music in heaven. Bach's been in heaven for 500 years or something, you don't think he's composing outrageous things?

Chris Jamison: Also, who gave you that ability?

Dan Shields: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: He knows.

Dan Shields: So God is not all that impressed. But it's a little bit like this to me. When my kids were little they used to like to draw pictures for me. And they'd draw a picture and give it to me and when they were really little, it might just look like giant hairball of color. And they'd be like, "Here's a cat, Daddy," or something like that. And I would hang it on my refrigerator, and I cherished those things. Why? Well, not because they were incredible works of art, although my daughter's name is Monet, so she did give me original Monets all the time. But they weren't anything that was impressive, but they were precious to me because it was their heart giving to my heart. And that's what it was all about. And I think sincere worship cuts through all of that. And I really do think we should do what we can do to the highest level of our abilities, but if it doesn't have the heart behind it, God is thoroughly unimpressed.

Dan Shields: The other side of that though, that development of skill, and this is a rabbit trail off of this, but that's what this podcast is all about-

Chris Jamison: [crosstalk 00:21:48]

Dan Shields: We love rabbit trails.

Chris Jamison: Rabbits, and trails, and ...

Dan Shields: We are, I do believe, to be stewards of the gifts that God's given us. And we are to steward those gifts to the best of our abilities. And some people have more abilities to steward those gifts than others. I mean, maybe you're born in a country where you're working the land or something for 12 hours a day and it's hard to come home and practice for four hours or something like that. So God understands the circumstances you're in. But those skills, I think, really when they're developed, they're not developed so much for God, but for people, and that's part of this discussion that we're talking about, is the presentation to people and gifts to God.

Dan Shields: And I've often likened those gifts to being diamonds inside of a mountain. And so God gives you some gift, he gives you the gift of music, David, you can play and you can sing really exceptionally well. But it's up to you to mine those things out to present them to people. So you're the one who's got to dig through that mountain, you've got to have the pick and the shovel in hand, and you've got to sweat and toil, and you've got to get to that diamond to bring that diamond out to show to other people. And then when you do, you slowly chisel away at that thing to craft it to make it something that's unique and precious, but something also that you can present to other people. Because otherwise, we all know people who have these incredible latent gifts, but they never develop them. And they're never presentable to other people in the way that they should be, even though you see this natural gift.

Dan Shields: So I think for us there's that honing of the craft to allow people to be able to really appreciate it. But if it isn't accompanied with that heart for God and that love for God, it's really just that clanging symbol or banging gong or whatever it is that they talk about in Corinthians 13. So ...

Chris Jamison: Yeah, on page 19 it says, "I believe that it's a priest's job to see the world not as it appears to the naked eye, but as it appears through the eyes of God. When you see people through God's eyes, you do not call them according to the flesh and what they currently are, but according to their potential, their future."

Chris Jamison: And I think as far as like developing our gifts and our craft and everything, when I first started here leading worship, I mean, the first song I sang I think I stood in one position. And I had sang on other stages before, but I was like super intimidated, wouldn't move, didn't say a word other than the words of the songs. And that was it. But, through that, the reason why ... like obviously, Dan, you're like, "Okay, well maybe I see something here," and there's people that haven't quite crafted their gift yet, but a lot of the times we can see ... other people see the potential in us before we see it in ourselves.

David Bowens: Yeah.

Dan Shields: Yeah.

Chris Jamison: And so I think that looking for that, and looking ... like when God created me, I was for a long time not living the life that he would've intended for me to live. But he saw the potential in me when he created me, and he pulled me out of that and I think we're called to do the same thing with others.

Chris Jamison: Hey, it's Chris. Thanks so much for listening to episode three of Walking in Worship. Join us next time as we continue our conversation on chapter two of Zachary Neese's book, How to Worship a King. And walk with us towards a deeper understanding of what worship truly is.