Welcome to Walking in Worship, a podcast from Orchard Hill Music, where our goal is to journey towards a deeper understanding of what christian worship really is. New episodes periodically on Monday!

This episode, Dan Shields, Chris Jamison and David Bowens sit down to continue their conversation on chapter 2 of Zach Neese's book, "How to Worship a King". Follow the link below to purchase Zach's book and follow along with our discussion.

Link to buy the book - https://amzn.to/2tVxF6P

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Podcast Transcript

Dan Shields: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Walking in Worship. My name is Dan Shields. I'm a worship pastor here at Orchard Hill Church.

Chris Jamison: My name is Chris Jamison. I'm a worship leader here at Orchard Hill Church as well.

David Bowens: My name is David Bowens. I'm also a worship leader here at Orchard Hill Church.

Dan Shields: This Walking in Worship podcast is designed just to help all of us grow in our faith and understanding of what worship really is.

Chris Jamison: Today we'll be continuing our conversation on chapter two of Zachary Neese's book, How to Worship a King. We're going to move on to the second question. It says, "As an ambassador for Christ, you're called and empowered to carry his presence wherever you go." I don't even know if we're necessarily empowered. That's just part, the Holy Spirit dwells within us. It says, "The same power that lives in us raised Christ from the dead. That we've been sealed with the Holy Spirit as it says in the word of God."

Chris Jamison: We have the living God dwelling in us. That's a great mystery. I don't understand that. I don't think anybody does, even though I'm sure some theologians could explain it well. It also talks in Ephesians 2 about how we're seated in the heavenly places currently with Christ. We are sort of in that heavenly Jerusalem as it says I think in Hebrews. This says, "We're ambassadors for Christ. His presence is wherever we go. How can an awareness of this truth change your day-to-day life?" No matter where we're at, God is present with us. How does that change us as human beings and as worshipers?

David Bowens: I believe in the moments that we decide to pay attention to it, it changes how you are. Because I think we distract ourselves to keep our minds off of the truth of that. We don't like to be quiet because we don't like to be convicted. I think because of that in your silence you'll find the battles with yourself raging the most, because you have to deal with what's in your mind when you're quiet.

David Bowens: One of the greatest things that this world has done is distract us. It's one of the greatest battles that the enemy has done is put so many things in front of us. "Just keep putting things in front of them, eventually they'll stop paying attention to their hearts. Eventually they'll stop paying attention to the pain. Eventually they'll stop paying attention to the emptiness and just stay busy, just keep moving." I realized that even for myself, when I'm just being busy and just being moving, I become incredibly exhausted. I become incredibly worn out. It feels like you don't know what it is, but it's because we won't stop and listen.

David Bowens: I realize that when we actually stop and actually listen, we can feel God tugging. We can fell our hearts longing for that connection, but we don't have it because we've been so distracted and so busy. Even working in a church. It was one of the things I shared when we, there was this past Monday, which I don't know if it will have any context when this comes out. But this past Monday, we were in a, what do you call it, a forum or something for the young adults. They were just asking me and Chris questions about worship.

David Bowens: One of the things I had said was I was talking about how even me and myself being in a church, I have deceived myself into believing that I was connecting with God because I was still reading my word and I was still praying. But all the things I was reading my word for and praying about had to do with some form of service that we were doing. None of it was just specifically to engage with the heart of God and to draw closer to him specifically. I was starting to feel worn out and exhausted and depleted trying to figure out why.

David Bowens: I come to realize that I had to see deceived myself into believing I was drawing closer to God when really I was just doing prayer and reading to execute a service, to execute a sound, to execute what I felt would be a good process of moving through information that I felt would be good information to share. But it wasn't like it was something that I was taking and feeding off of and feeding my spirit and growing in God from. I realized that I totally forgot the initial question, but-

Chris Jamison: No, you're on it though. Keep going.

David Bowens: But at the same time I just realized-

Chris Jamison: Preach, David, preach.

David Bowens: ... the intention, it's so essential to actually seek the Lord and quiet yourself and remove the distractions, I think daily for some portion of time because it allows you to really hear God, feel the pain. Because I think if we don't feel the pain, we don't address it. I think because we distract ourselves so much, we don't allow ourselves to feel what's really going on on the inside.

David Bowens: I think the closest I had gotten to the Lord, I can honestly say this, the closest I'd really gotten to the Lord in my entire life was when I was living by myself. I didn't have enough money to have cable TV. I didn't have enough money to have ... the cellphones aren't like they are now where you can just access everything. It was a flip phone. It wasn't something that could totally take you away from the world. I had to sit by myself many nights. It forced me to see myself. It forced me to feel the pain. It forced me to just run to the feet of the father.

David Bowens: I literally spent time, I would go to the church and lay out on the altar and pray days and days, just pray and read and pray and read because I just felt like there's such an emptiness. I think because we're so distracted now, we don't feel that anymore. It's so easy to execute well and to perform well and to create a regimen even in your own life and it still be empty. I think taking those moments to really feel really here and allow God to speak to you. What I mean to speak to you is you may not hear this audible, "I am God," but you'll feel it in your soul. Ideas will be brought to the top of your mind.

David Bowens: In those moments, I was called to reach out to people who I hadn't reached out to in a long time because I knew there was pain. That created a distance that God did not want there or something that I was holding against somebody, an unforgiveness that God can't get beyond. He can't allow you closer to him with this unforgiveness in your heart. Things that we know are there, but we distract ourselves from that keep us then farther from God, farther from God than we need to be as worshipers. Worship is supposed to draw you closer, but the closer you get to God, the more your self is revealed to yourself.

David Bowens: God knows you. It's not like you're being more revealed to him. He's revealing yourself to yourself so that you can see the things that need to be removed so you can take another step closer because sin cannot be in God's presence. When that sin is there, the more you draw closer to God, that sin, God is like, "All right, now we need to move this. We need to get this out the way." So, "Okay, God. I got it." You move that out of the way. Now you can take another step. Okay, "Now, we need to get this out of the way." It's always something because sin is always in our life, but the worship becomes more powerful when we're seeking God and actually in the actual progress of trying to draw closer in dealing with the things that God is revealing to us that's in the way.

Chris Jamison: This is why I love this. You guys had been in the church a lot longer than I have. It's been like three or four years for me. But what's so fun for me is to kind of be able to sit here and listen to the wisdom that you have. You're talking about how looking at your self and being able to spend time with yourself. I feel like as you were talking, God was looking ... I was looking at myself through what you were saying. Because my biggest thing is I'm a people pleaser. Since I started coming to church, my biggest issue is carrying my worship that I have on Sunday, carrying that into my life with my friends, with my family. Sharing with them what I'm learning and understanding for the very first time.

Chris Jamison: I notice myself always in those situations shying away from taking a hold of, even whenever something is right in front of me and saying, "Hey, go for it. This is your opportunity. Share with them. Explain whatever it is that," because ultimately, it's just a matter of me sharing what's real and personal to me, what my testimony is. But I always shy away from it because sinfully I'm worried about, "What's that person going to think of me? Are they going to not want to hang out with me anymore," which is so ridiculous. That's why as we sit here, it's just this whole people-pleasing mentality. It's very easy.

Chris Jamison: I've had that since even before I was in the church. I've seen it carry over into it. It's now just more convicting whenever I look at myself and, "Okay, you are to go and make disciples of all nations. You are not to be ashamed of your faith. You are to," In Acts, I'm going through it with a couple of other guys. I mean they're risking their lives to share this news. Here I am in the comfort of my city that we live in with all of these nice things and I'm nervous. I have so much less to lose. They were in positions where they were losing their lives.

David Bowens: So true.

Chris Jamison: I'm nervous because-

David Bowens: Your perception of it.

Chris Jamison: They're going to think maybe these people ... it just is so, I don't know. It's just convicting for me to, something that I need to just continue. I think it's just a matter of diving in and going for it and saying it. We, I think psych ourselves out more by being in our head and saying ... a lot of the times we look at situations and think they're going to go one way and they'll go a completely other direction.

David Bowens: So true.

Chris Jamison: I think a lot of people are waiting to hear about God, about Jesus. A lot of people feel empty. They're looking for something to fill him up because all the things we have in this world are not filling them up. By me being worried about what they're going to think of me, I don't want to say I'm robbing them of the opportunity to experience a love of God because if God wants, I don't know. I guess that's weird because it's not up to me ... whatever. You know what I'm trying to say. I'll cut that last part out because-

David Bowens: One, I don't think you should cut it out. But that's the real mentality of so many people, I think what connects with people is realness. That's a mentality that's gone through all of us at some point or is still the mentality for a lot of us. Hoping that, "I don't mess this up." But at the end of the day, I think we see ourselves greater sometimes than we should. I think that's part of our own pride.

David Bowens: But that's part of also why we don't respond because we're so mindful of the perspective of people of us. We want our perspective, them to see us as these wonderful people. We feel like, "If I say this, will this mess up how you see me?" That's my own pride speaking. I do the same thing. I'm not saying it's just you. I definitely do the same thing.

Chris Jamison: Which is what I'm saying as if it's my responsibility to save this person. Yeah.

Dan Shields: There was a famous psychologist, they said, this is a confusing statement, but if you can stick with it, it says something powerful. It says, "We're not who we think we are. We're not who others think we are. We are who we think others think we are." Our perception of ourselves is often determined not by our own perception or not by other people's perception-

David Bowens: Yes, yes, seriously.

Dan Shields: ... but our perception of what we think people think of us. That stops us from doing a lot of things. We're called as priests. If we're really called to minister unto the Lord, that's got to be our first priority, our first objective and our first allegiance. Not to ourselves and who we are.

Dan Shields: You were talking about the Acts thing and reading through and people laying down their lives. I remember years ago I was at a conference in Korea. I was talking to a guy who was a Jordanian pastor. Most pastors here you talk to, whether it's a small church or a big church, you hear the same sort of things when you ask the question, "What sort of struggles does your church have?" "We have 10% of people doing 90% of the work. We can't get the men involved deeply enough. People are not reading the word of God enough. People are not committed to sharing for the," you hear the same things over and over. "If we had just a little bit more resources, we could do these really great things that we want to do."

Dan Shields: I asked this guy just to see what his biggest challenge in his church was. It was shocking to me because you realize that the church is a lot bigger than an American church. I said, "What's the biggest challenge you guys face?" He said, "Well, brother. The biggest challenge we face is we're in a Muslim area. If you convert, your family will kill you. Your life is on the line."

David Bowens: Jeez.

Dan Shields: "They could come after the church. They could burn down the church or they could kill the people in the church." I have good friends from Egypt. They left Egypt because it got so dangerous for them. They thought that their lives and their kids' lives were on the line. The husband got arrested and was facing 25 years in jail just because he worked with a Christian organization that did broadcasting. He was there when soldiers kicked in the door and were pointing machine guns at them and taking all the stuff out of the studio. It's very real. You hear people talk about the whispering church. This church that they can't meet. They can't do podcasts. If they are found out, their lives are on the line.

Dan Shields: I remember hearing a story years ago about a church. It was either in Romania or Russia. All of a sudden, maybe it was East Germany and the Stasi came and kicked in the doors of this church and machine guns were pointed. People are screaming and it's chaos. The soldiers pointed the guns at some people. The leader of the group said, "Everybody who professes Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, stay. The rest of you may leave now." Most of the church left. Three quarters of the church left. Those people who were there knew that they were either going to be arrested or killed, but they didn't want to be unfaithful to their God. Next thing you know, the machine guns lowered and the man said, "Brother, I'm one of you. But I needed to find out who the true believers were."

Dan Shields: But what a test of your faith. What would you do in that situation? It's very challenging. As priests, we're really called to stand up for God in our situation, no matter where we're at as his ambassadors, you stand, an ambassador does not stand on his own account, on his own accord. He or she is there to represent the government that's been placed there. Whatever country you're in, you're not to be a citizen of that country. You're a citizen of your own country representing them. That's how we are. Our citizenship is in heaven. It's not here on earth. Were to stand as ambassadors and priests here in a hostile sometimes environment for Christians to stand up in. That's a difficult thing.

Dan Shields: That takes up right into question number three, this is a nice transition. It says, "Priests court the heart of God, us as priests, we courts the heart of God. Politicians court the hearts of people. How would our churches in the world change if we focused on ministering to God instead of ministering to people?" I'd like to read a little bit of what he says here because I think this is important stuff. On page 13 about halfway down he says, he's talking about us being priests. He said, "If the church would embrace this, I'm an ambassador for Christ. I'm a priest unto the Lord. If the church would embrace this, we would have a cultural revolution within our own ranks. A conversion from idolatry, which means it's all about me. It's all about my preference. It's all about what I like and dislike, to truth. Why do I say idolatry? Because we have marketed the people what was meant as ministry to Jesus. We've marketed to people what was meant as ministry to Jesus."

Dan Shields: Then he says this, "We've made worship about us, our preferences, our tastes, our comforts, our opinions. We have made it about ministering to our needs and coddling to our self-centered natures. When we make worship about us, what we communicate to God is that worship is for us. When worship is for us, we become the objects of worship, little gods in our own hearts. We become idolaters." Then he says this, this as the clincher statement. "Let's make this as clear as a cloudless morning, worship is not for us. Worship is for God."

Chris Jamison: As we talk about all these different things and we're talking about the distractions and the things that essentially pull us away from God or pull our focus to ourselves as opposed to towards God, I'm wondering if the whole mentality of like less is more is something that as a church, not just as this church that we serve in, but in the church, the big church. I wonder if we're too consumed with trying to make all these different groups, all these different events, all these different things that we're kind of adding to the buffet of different things that we can-

David Bowens: True.

Chris Jamison: ... all choose from to attend-

David Bowens: True.

Chris Jamison: ... and stuff like that. I'm wondering if it's maybe we pull all that back and it's again, just the mentality of less is more. We are not called to worship ourselves and our own things like you just said. We're called to worship God. What if we just came together?

Chris Jamison: That's why I think too with the worship nights. Such a powerful night to be able to be in a room and literally everyone's priority there is to worship God.

David Bowens: I try to make sure even in the advertising, in the sharing, especially early on when we first started doing it, I was like, "If you're coming, this is not a concert. I want everyone. If you're coming, your intention is to engage. It is not to just sit and hear or hope the music is what you want it." I partly like the fact that it's never perfect.

Chris Jamison: Me too.

David Bowens: Part of me is like-

Chris Jamison: We're not supposed to.

David Bowens: ... it's never perfect. I know it's not going to be perfect and that's why I say what I say the day of. I say, "Listen, guys. We've rehearsed. We've done what we could do. It's as good as it's going to be. That's fine. If you miss a note, you miss a note, you play something wrong, it does not matter. The only intention of this night is to engage the heart of God as a body together. That's what matters the most. If you miss a note, you miss a word, whatever. Who cares?"

Chris Jamison: Honestly, I think the more you focus, the more you rehearse, the more you're just aiming towards perfection and performance and making sure that you nail everything, again, as if you screw up that note-

David Bowens: It's going to wreck everybody's life.

Chris Jamison: ... someone is not going to be saved. It is going to ruin. We put all this weight on ourselves. I think that's why I love those nights is I hit all of the wrong notes. I sing all of the wrong notes.

David Bowens: I doubt that, but okay.

Dan Shields: You sing the wrong notes really well, I've got to say.

David Bowens: You've got us all deceived.

Chris Jamison: But, I have a smile on my face the entire time when I'm there because it's this is what worship is. It's not a consumer. Everyone's standing. Everyone's worshiping God. Everyone's in. Every Sunday, that's what every single day should be like. We are all in. We're all worshiping God every single minute of every single day. What if when we all can the church, if we had that mentality as opposed to, "Sit down. Feed me. I'm full. See you next Sunday."

Dan Shields: What a joy for us too. He says this on page 19. He said, "Half of the priest's job is worshiping God." We try to do that. When we get up on stage, we try to worship God. But he said, "The other half is helping others to worship God." We're talking about the worship night and that engagement with a worship night, when we're really free in worship, throwing caution to the wind and worship in our hearts and our minds and our eyes are really on God. If the notes are wrong, the notes are wrong. It's okay. We look out and we see other people doing the same thing, it's an incredible joy.

Dan Shields: Much better than just a well-crafted, well-polished worship service that we present for other people. We're in it together and when you feel that community together, man, there is something ... magical is not the right word for it. But it feels like that. Something really special is taking place. It's a really incredible thing.

Dan Shields: That was some engaging conversation. Thanks for being a part of this. Hopefully we'll catch you next time on Walking in Worship.

Chris Jamison: Hey, it's Chris. Thanks so much for listening to episode four of Walking in Worship. Join us next time as we begin our conversation on chapter three of Zachary Neese's book, How to Worship a King and walk with us towards a deeper understanding of what worship truly is.