Episode Description

In this episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund has a conversation with Joel Haldeman & Kay Warheit about when Christian leaders fall, how Christians and non-Christians should think about leadership failures, what the role of grace, restoration, and forgiveness is for leaders, and more!

Perspectives is a podcast from Orchard Hill Church in Pittsburgh, PA that addresses culturally relevant topics in our world and brings a Biblical perspective to them. We will focus on issues in the area of inference or things not explicitly stated in scripture that Christians have divergent opinions on and talk about them from different perspectives. New episodes every Thursday morning!

If there is a topic you want us to discuss, send an email to info@orchardhillchurch.com.

Episode Transcript

Kurt Bjorklund: Hi, welcome to our Perspectives podcast. This is something we're doing at Orchard Hill where we address current issues from a biblical perspective, and we chose the name perspective intentionally. Because although hopefully we will address at times biblical topics and clarify what the Bible says, what we're really trying to do is target some of the areas where it's more of an inference or an implication of a biblical teaching. And where the Bible doesn't explicitly say exactly how a Christian should think on an issue. And so there might be different perspectives. But we want to have a chance to have those conversations in an intelligent and hopefully graceful way. And so today, I'm joined by Kay Warheit. Kay works with our Women's Ministry at our Butler County campus. Kay, welcome.  

Kay Warheit: Good morning. Thank you. It's good to be here. 

Kurt Bjorklund: And also, by Joel Haldeman, who is our Strip District campus pastor. Welcome, Joel.  

Joel Haldeman: Yeah, glad to be here.  

Kurt Bjorklund: So, welcome, and today we are going to talk about when leaders fall. And I guess the most obvious case right now has been the case with Jerry Falwell, Jr. at Liberty University. If you're not familiar with this story, Jerry Falwell Jr. had been the president of the biggest evangelical Christian university or college in the nation. And through a series of events, resigned, and took a large severance. Probably the most salacious things that happened were a picture of him with his pants unzipped, with his arm around his wife's assistant (supposedly) on a yacht, where his wife was also. and some something in his drink that he called, Blackwater, which were all violations of the Liberty code. And then, what was interesting, is after that he did a radio interview, and basically said, I promise I'll be a good boy from now on. And then it came out just a couple days later, that he was being accused by a pool boy, as they called him, that's their phrase not mine, of somebody they had hired at a house they owned in Miami, who claimed that he had sex with Becky Falwell, Jerry Falwell's wife, and that Jerry had watched on numerous occasions. Jerry, for his part has come out and said, we acknowledge the affair, but I was never involved. I didn't watch. So, he kind of took that. But here's what we'd like to just address today. And that is, how should Christians or non-Christians think about leadership failures? Jerry Falwell isn't the first and he isn't the last who will be a known Christian who goes through some kind of embarrassing story or fall or whatever word you want to use. We could go down a list of people who this has happened to in various ways and for various reasons. And certainly, we can talk about the specifics of the Jerry Falwell case, but we want to talk about how should people think about it? And then what is the role of grace, restoration, and forgiveness? How does that work in leadership specifically? So, please jump in. 

Kay Warheit: Well, my first thought is - I'm glad it's on the front page. If it was on a back page, then we've become used to it. We should be disappointed. We should be shocked and surprised. It's just not something that we want to hear. It's not something we want to make acceptable. So, when it's on the front page, to me, it's like okay, this is not the norm. This should be something that we need to be hopefully surprised and not say ah, everybody, does it. No big deal. 

Joel Haldeman: I was actually going to lead with the complete opposite statement. So, I think this will be interesting to talk about. And I was thinking that as Christians, we shouldn't be surprised when it happens. And what should surprise us more is when we hear stories of someone like Billy Graham, who lives out his life without any sort of crazy accusations about him. But I don't think you're wrong. I think that there's sort of this dual. You're right. We should hold people in positions of power to a higher standard but at the same time, anytime a Christian sins. I don't know, there should be sort of an expectation that everybody has a dark corner in their life. I don't know. Tell me I'm wrong. 

Kay Warheit: Well, I agree with you in that the Old Testament is full of sex, money, and sin. Going against the law. I hear what you're saying. We shouldn't be surprised. But still, I always say if something's on the front page, it's not our norm, and there's more depth to it. But when I heard it, my first reaction was disappointment and then why? Why did he go this way? 

Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, it seems like the longer somebody has been in leadership, the more you probably have a right to expect that they can at least manage their lives in such a way as to avoid certain things. Now, that doesn't mean it'll always happen. So, you know, to Joel's point, yes, there's going to be sin. But I guess I feel differently when I hear about a 25 year old who has just started life or ministry, and something happens, than I do about a 58 year old, which is how old Jerry Falwell Jr. was, who's had decades of opportunities to form a pattern. And so, at least on some level, there's a pattern that formed in secret, that then he kept secret. And that became, I think, part of the issue. And I think that's an important thing to talk about is the difference between sin and mistakes and secrets that are perpetuated over a long period of time. I think those two things are very different. And I think as a church, and I don't just mean Orchard Hill Church, I mean, any church, the church community, we want to be about grace and forgiveness. And there's a difference when somebody makes a mistake and repents, and we acknowledge that to somebody who has chosen a pattern of secrecy over time. Now, Jerry Falwell, I've heard has said that he was never a pastor, never a minister. I'm just a lawyer turned college president. And my job was to grow the college. It was never to be a moral example. That was somebody else's. But I think, from a de facto sense, if you're the president of the biggest Christian university, there's a certain moral expectation that's not unfair. And that's probably another point to talk about here is sometimes people will say, well, it's not fair that you have any expectations on me, because I'm a leader. I'm just another Christian saved by grace. And I do think there's a fairness to leaders having a different set of expectations. Not necessarily different expectations, like you'd expect any Christian man not to engage in those exact things, but to say we do hold you to a different level of accountability when you've allowed yourself to be in a place of leadership for that amount of time. 

Kay Warheit: Well, and with the different level of accountability comes our level of accountability. How naive we are to think that because a man of God is not tempted, that were not praying for their back as far as anything from sexual sin to financial, anything, we put it on ourselves to think, well, they don't know how hard life is. Now, again, Jerry Falwell wasn't spiritual, but he was holding to, no sex, no alcohol, that the standard for liberty, and then you see the hypocrisy. Was he accountable to people? Were there people around him? That's responsibility of a fellowship in a Christian community to not expect, well, he's different, and he doesn't have this, or the problems I have. So, we're accountable too. 

Joel Haldeman: Yeah, I think that's maybe the most insidious thing about it is, as this person comes into a position of more power, there's more of a desire to guard themselves and to hide things. I think was Matt Chandler that said this, that there was a group of men in his church that every year he sent his tax returns to. And not only that, but they knew everything about his life because he wanted it to be known that there was a group of people that knew everything about him. There were no secrets from this group of people. And there was never anybody that could say, I found out something about you that nobody else knows. Which I thought is brilliant. 

Kay Warheit: Yeah. Billy Graham was there too. He made himself very open, and I remember him being mocked for not getting in a car with a reporter, or not being in an elevator. And he was laughed at, but there's nothing we can find out about him. And so, you have to live an extreme life when you're in that position of leadership. But I just I think the pressure. I mean, they said he built Liberty up to a level that was never there before. And to get a $10 million severance pay. He brought in some money.  

Kurt Bjorklund: That's the kind of stuff again, that causes some people to struggle with Christianity. How could you? How could the university do that? So, let's see if we can just talk about that. How should somebody who says, boy, this feels like they paid him a huge sum of money to go away, how is that okay? How do you guys see that? 

Kay Warheit: It was in his contract. And I don't understand contracts. That is where I get stuck. It's like, what was the idea that if his position was severed that he got $10 million. As a parent, I would be furious that, that's where the money for Liberty goes when you're struggling.  

Kurt Bjorklund: I didn't realize that was in the contract.  

Kay Warheit: That's my understanding.  

Kurt Bjorklund: I had assumed that it was a little bit of a go away, and there's probably a severance agreement where he won't sue, and some of that. But I'm freely admitting I haven't read anything on it.  

Kay Warheit: Well, it's 2. 5 million up front, and the rest comes later. But even that I can't fathom. 

Kurt Bjorklund: The flip side is, again, if you're the head of a non-Christian university, those are the kinds of numbers that probably get thrown around at you. And so, some people would say, well, okay, this is the business part of what he was doing. It's not unique to a Christian university. He clearly did grow the university and brought in way more money, endowments, and growth than had ever been there. And so, from a pure business standpoint, that's probably not a crazy severance deal given the size of their budget and everything else. But it doesn't feel great when you talk about parents scraping together money to send their kids to Liberty, and some of those things. 

Joel Haldeman: I was just going say, when you consider the amount of money that's at stake in that university, and the amount of damage that he has the potential to do. They probably just see that as an insurance policy. I mean, everybody already knew that Jerry Falwell was a loose cannon. They could have anticipated, this could go south at some point, and we need a way to make this problem go away so that the university can continue on. So, I don't know. 

Kurt Bjorklund: When should a leader not be restored or not come back to a position and when should a leader be able to come back to a position? Maybe not in the exact organization, but even a different organization. What are the things that you would say that person should just be done versus, versus oh, this is something where this person can come back and work in the same basic arena again?  

Kay Warheit: It's like being in an accident. You need months to recuperate. There's a lot of damage. And what he did to that university is damage into his own. And I think I even heard him say what was being told was 90% correct. What is the other 10% and does that matter? But I think everybody wants to quote when Jesus told the woman caught in the act, where are those who condemn you and he said, neither do I. But then they leave out the part that says then go and sin no more. So, is there remorse?  Is there an understanding, a time of wrong, and I'll just go on? Personally, I don't think they're ready for any kind of leadership. And it's not about us forgiving. It's about us saying this is just going to keep happening.  

Joel Haldeman: I think there needs to be a sense of remorse and honesty in that person. And I was just reading last night about Perry Noble at New Spring, I think maybe it was two years ago, that he was removed, basically, because of alcohol abuse, and how he treated his wife was the other piece of that.  

Kurt Bjorklund: She went through a divorce that she wasn't necessarily on board with, I believe. I think it was all part of it, like it was all happening simultaneously. And maybe she wanted the divorce by the end, but initially, she wanted the marriage and he was choosing the alcohol, that, again, might have some of those facts wrong. So, don't quote me on that.  

Joel Haldeman: So, it was maybe a year ago that he started a new church called Second Chance church or something like that. And I think of a guy like him and even Mark Driscoll before him. I don't have a problem with them being pastors again later. I think in both of those cases, it seemed like it was too soon. It seems like there were too many people that were stepping up and saying, like this person, has not owned what they did. They haven't been remorseful, and they haven't confessed. And I think that needs to be an important part of that process. 

Kurt Bjorklund: You know, that's an interesting thing that you bring up. And there's other examples, Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll, where people left their roles, and then jumped out of a process and jumped back to say, well, I'm going to do this whether you're with me or not with me. And it would seem to me that one of the important elements of restoration is going through a process with the leadership that the issue occurred under that leadership. And, you may hit a point at some point where you say, okay, I don't think these people are being reasonable. I need to move on. But I think that should be tried and exhausted at a minimum. And I think in all three of those instances, you didn't see that. What you saw was, okay, the church in Seattle blew up, I'm going move to Phoenix and start a church. And now I'm back. And that's that. And I think there should have been submitting to that leadership, and a sense of repentance and process that took place. And again, before somebody comes back, if they've run afoul of a particular church or organization that they were in leadership of. 

Joel Haldeman: It's just bizarre that here we are thousands of miles away and we're talking about Mark Driscoll and how he jumped back into ministry without owning his failure. And I think even if that pastor finds that the process is totally bogus at some point, just for the sake of that nationwide influence that he has, the people outside, he just needs to own it. Jumping to a new person here. The thing that makes me most sad about Bill Hybels and all of that fallout, is what's he going to do now? Just live out his days in hiding? And I don't know, how old was he? 

Kurt Bjorklund: He was 60 something and was ready to retire, supposedly. I mean, he was going to retire in August and jumped it a little bit.  

Joel Haldeman: Yeah, lead one of the largest churches in the country and was accused of things that happened a long time ago and denied it. At some point, maybe he admitted that there was some sin that went on. But now it's just like, he just ends that way. And he just never says anything. It's just a sad, sad ending to a story. 

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, that one's probably a little different in that he denied the allegations. And some of the allegations were certainly problematic, but probably weren't at some of the level of some of the other issues. Not saying that they weren't an issue, but like some of the first stories that came out, and granted some of them got more, but it was like he told one woman he liked her arms or something. Where you're like, okay, that's not a great moment, but I don't know that it should be your done in ministry. Now, granted, there was more, I'm not saying that. But as the story came out, it wasn't as clear cut as some of the other stories that we've heard. And again, he denied and said, I did not do what you said I did. And so that makes that a much harder case because you don't have agreement. Even in the Falwell case, I think you see agreement, even he's saying, 90% of this is true basically. And you know, he posted his own pictures, so it wasn't like you could say, hey, I didn't post the picture that you see on my Instagram. And so those are different scenarios, but I think even in the Hybels case, wouldn't it be a beautiful thing for the kingdom to see him go back to Willow Creek and to the leadership there and say, I want to make this right. What is this going to look like to make it right? What's hard is, again, he may say I can't do that because you're asking me to admit to something that I don't believe I did. And so that case may not be reconcilable. 

Joel Haldeman: But bro has a platform. He's just got a tweet something and people are going to read it, and it's going to get picked up. I just think you're so right about that. What does he have to lose at this point?  

Kurt Bjorklund: Right. Well, again, it's such a sad thing when it's just done, and there's no process involved. And again, I would say like Mark Driscoll, I have a hard time with exactly what he's doing just because again, I feel like he blew up a church. And he would say he didn't. He would say it was other people. But I mean, I think there were 27 elders, or I forget the exact number, so again, don't quote me on the exact number, but that all signed a public letter saying he's not fit to lead and here's why. I mean, if there were 27 former elders who said Kurt isn't fit to lead at some point, that's a problem. However, you look at it, and you have to say, okay, I can't just say that's somebody else's issue. There's an issue if you get that many people who were that close to leadership saying, this is a problem. Then at some point, you've got to say, okay, how do I go back and make that right before I reemerge. And again, I'm not saying there's never a time to say, I can't make it right with these people. But I think that should be part of the process and expectation when somebody is returning. Especially when it isn't people who are as well known. What people do is they just simply run. And this has been a critique of the Catholic Church when they reassigned priests. Well, the Evangelical Church does it without assigning, people just resign, God calls them somewhere else, and then they show up somewhere else. And nobody knows what the story is because there are laws about not divulging anything more than somebody's time there, and then they show up, and you don't know that it's ever been dealt with. And so, again, to me, the dealing with the leadership that's in places is a is a really significant piece of that. What would you say if you had a student who attended a school or a friend who attended one of these churches, and they got so disillusioned that they said, I haven't given up on God entirely, but I'm done with church, with Christian institutions, because I got burned by this leader.  

Kay Warheit: We were part of a church where some of that happened. And there was one woman in my Bible study who said, I quit, that I don't believe anything now. And I said just because the leader fell doesn't mean the Bible changed. The Bible still is the truth. And that's maybe an excuse that people have. I think it does hurt. It does burn. I think people still cry over past leaders, very emotional, because they thought that was the next step to God. And again, that's our fault when we hold a leader up too high. But I would just say, search God for yourself, and don't depend on that person. 

Kurt Bjorklund: I feel like the Evangelical Church, and this will probably sound rich coming from me, but I think we make many superstars out of people who have successful ministries way too much. And, it's really interesting how it happens. It isn't even about necessarily size of anything. But it's like, Mark Driscoll, he's the best because his church grew and he sold some books, or whoever it is, and we almost create a situation that's ripe for disappointment, rather than saying, as I've often said, unfortunately, we use world standards to evaluate success in ministry. And there are godly people in churches of 100, 200, 300, 500, 1,000, 10,000, 15,000, and there are ungodly actions by people in all of those sizes too. And we need to take away the idea from our way of thinking that says, well God's special favors on person x, because their thing is big, or it's known, or they have more hits on their podcast than anybody else. And because that hurts, I think in this conversation, rather than being able to say, character matters in leadership, and when you see it over time, regardless of where it is, that's something to be appreciated and followed rather than just success. 

Joel Haldeman: Yeah. And I think our culture, Christian culture, doesn't value humility. Not even just our Christian culture, how did, I shouldn't say this but I'm going to say it anyway, how did Donald Trump win the Republican nomination? He was the most boisterous voice and he put himself out there. And I think sometimes we have this same approach towards Christian leaders. Here's a senior pastor, I'm thinking of Mark Driscoll here, who loves to be the center of attention, a power hungry person, had to be in control of everything, and we just allow that type of personality to rise to the top instead of the person who's humble. And so, I think what that means for each of us, personally, is we just need to come to value humility more than we do instead of, wow, look what that person did. Let's say wow, look at the humility that's exemplified in that person.  

Kurt Bjorklund: Or faithfulness, even over time. I mean, when somebody serves a church in any role for an extended period of time, that's a sacrifice that person and family have made in some way. Or an organization, whether it's high in a level or in a level that people would say isn't, and to be able to appreciate that. You know, the person who, who teaches at a university, a person who says, hey, I'm going to be the facility manager, or the admin support in a ministry for a long time. Those are often truly sacrificial decisions, to say we're going to do this because we believe in a cause. And again, what we tend to do is make an evangelical superstar out of some people, and then when they fall, it becomes a big story, rather than, they're just a different version doing what their gifts have allowed them to do. Hopefully, in faithfulness to God in the same way that other people have. 

Kay Warheit: We were designed to want a hero. And unfortunately, we don't let it be Jesus. But how many times people come in the lobby and say, first time, you know, I'm hoping someday to meet the pastor. Well, he's standing right over there. Oh, I can't talk to him. Yeah, you can. We want someone between us and God because we're not worthy. We know that instinctively. And that's what the Catholic Church has you pray to the saints. And in the Protestant church, it's the pastor. The pastor is a holy man, and he can pray for me, he can take care of this. So, it is a distorted desire that God gave us to want someone to look up to. And unfortunately, we can't see God. We can't see Jesus. So, we want our pastor to be that go between. 

Kurt Bjorklund: All right. Final thoughts on the stumbling’s of some prominent Christian leaders here in recent days. Joel, then Kay, and then I'll make a few comments. 

Joel Haldeman: Yeah, I want to read just a couple words from Ezekiel 34. The situation there is that the leaders in Israel were totally disappointing. Ezekiel says, shepherds of Israel, you've been feeding yourselves, should not shepherds feed the sheep, you eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool. It goes on and on, you know, the shepherds are lousy, basically. But then it comes, and it says, God says, I myself will be the shepherds of my sheep. I myself will make them lie down and it goes on. I will, I will, I will, I will. And the idea here is that leaders disappoint but God steps in and he says, I'm going to be the leader. I'm going to be the chief shepherd. Actually, I think it was Perry Noble's church, that after he left, they rewrote their organization documents to have Jesus Christ as a senior pastor. And then they had four, basically, lead pastors. Which was an interesting model. And then I think, just one of the thought is that, you know, where this hits close to home for each of us is that we all need to learn to own our sin as quickly as possible, and to not pretend we're perfect. And so that means for me, the other night, that meant when I was tucking in one of my kids just saying, I'm sorry. I lost my cool. I need your forgiveness. I need God's forgiveness. And I think when we develop those sorts of habits, Kurt you started talking about these habits that we have over a lifetime, that our habit wants to be not hiding things, but owning things. 

Kay Warheit: Well, I don't have scripture. I have a quote, the law is not there to be broken, but the law is for the broken. And I think we can choose to mock God's law, putting him first, and then hold it up to other people, but are we doing it ourselves? And I agree. When I heard about Falwell, it was just so sad and so disappointing. And then it was, is there anything that I think that I'm getting away with, whether it's my thoughts, or my harsh words. It should be humbling for us to see God's grace. And that, we're not on the front page, but someday we will be accountable for what we've done to and not just looking at the big sins that are on the front page, but what little things do I think I'm getting away with, God, please show me. 

Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, and my just final comment, I think we started by talking about, sometimes it's the secrets that get built over the years. And anybody who's been around our church staff here has heard me say over time, there are no secrets. And I think that's such a good mantra. I say that to my boys. Live as if nothing is secret. As if everything that you do, will one day be known. Anything you type, anything you write, anything you say, and if you do that, it does take away a lot of the lure of something that can be ship wrecking to you at some point. And, I use it a lot of times, not necessarily in reference to your own life, but just in terms of how we make decisions as a church. Just to say, hey, there are no secrets, you know, whatever we decide, assume that we're going to tell the whole story to anybody who asks. And I think there's a safety in that. And I know, some people would say, well, you know, you can't do that, because people don't understand. Even Jerry Falwell said, there's judgmental people, that's the problem. And so, he probably felt like he had to live differently because those judgmental people would have looked at him differently. But that sometimes becomes a guide rail, to say, if how I'm acting or living can't be lived and known, then maybe I need to check it. I remember years ago, talking to somebody who's a younger single person who was working in a church. And the person was dating, and they didn't want anyone to pay attention to their dating life. And they're like, you know, this seems so unfair that people would care how I date. I should be able to date the way that I want to date, and nobody should care. And I said to the person, I said, well, part of the issue is, because you're in leadership, when people look at you, they're saying, is this what it looks like to be a single Christian person and date. And that is entirely fair. And so, part of what you need to do is embrace that there is no secret to how you date. I would say the same thing about being a dad or a marriage. If you're in church leadership, at times, it may feel suffocating to have somebody look and say, well, how are your kids behaving and what are they doing. But it's also fair for people to say, what does it look like to be a Christian parent? How do Christian parents deal with it? And you know, Joel, I love what you just said. Sometimes a Christian dad's going to yell at their kids and own that. And that's part of the gospel. And, so it doesn't mean perfection, what it means is, I've so embraced the gospel that I'm okay telling you the places that I come short, and the places that I have been able to follow because all of it's part of the story. And so, part of the reason we make heroes and heroes fall, is we have this false notion of not being driven by the gospel but being driven by perfection. And, so we really need both saying, there's no secret, but part of the reason there can be no secret that I can live that way, anybody can live that way, is because we live as a community of grace, that has so lived into the experience of grace that I can bring things. Now, obviously, there are things if you're a leader, there's going to be a guide rail. I can't go out and punch somebody just because I disagree with their view and expect that there's no consequence. There is a having to balance that, but I think that's such a powerful thing. And if you're in an organization, even just to say, you know, we don't want there to be secrets, because that helps that organization. And that doesn't mean everybody's entitled to every piece of knowledge. Not everyone needs to know everything when I say there are no secrets. But it means, as you said, somebody knows, and that's a good thing. At least somebody, I think you used the example of Matt Chandler, there's a group of people that know what's going on. Hopefully, a church or organization has a structure built in it. That's what's some of the board should be doing in any organization. But, it's always bigger than a board because structures don't make anything happen or not happen ultimately, they're supposed to, but at the end of the day, it's about people being willing to submit to an offering to submit to it. So, with that, we just want to say thank you for spending part of your day with our Perspectives podcast. Joel and Kay, thank you for making this part of your day and being part of the conversation.