Perspectives Podcast - Navigating Conflict and Tense Conversations
Episode Description
In this episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund has a conversation with his wife and Orchard Hill Counselor, Faith Bjorklund, about navigating conflict in our relationships, how to engage in tense conversations, and more!
Episode Transcript
Kurt Bjorklund: Hi, welcome to the Perspectives podcast. This is a podcast that we are doing at Orchard Hill that addresses current issues. And certainly, we hope to bring a biblical perspective to these issues. But we have chosen the name Perspectives intentionally because our hope is that sometimes we will bring some different perspectives about what the Bible says, not that the Bible does not speak definitively to issues. But sometimes there are nuances because we are dealing in inferences or implications rather than what is explicitly stated. And so, our hope is that we would be able to consider what it is to think Christianly about current issues. And today I'm joined by my wife, Faith Bjorklund, welcome.
Faith Bjorklund: Thank you. It's great to be here.
Kurt Bjorklund: Faith, tell us just for our listeners a little bit about what you do professionally, just so people understand your background in terms of what you do from a vocational standpoint.
Faith Bjorklund: I am a therapist, which means I do professional counseling here at Orchard Hill Church in the Orchard Hill Counseling Center. And I do individual therapy and marriage therapy mostly, occasionally family therapy.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay and tell us just a little bit about the counseling center. And how does somebody connect to that if they are interested in that.
Faith Bjorklund: You can go online if you are interested in learning more about our counseling center. And you can also get the number online and talk to somebody to schedule an appointment. We have several therapists who have different specialties. There are five of us now. And we work Tuesday, Wednesdays, and Thursdays here at Orchard Hill Church.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, great. And I can say I have seen a lot of people take part in what is offered there and find great benefit in that. So, it is a great resource. It's available right here at Orchard Hill at our Wexford campus. Faith, we are going to talk a little bit today about conflict. And obviously, as somebody who works as a therapist, a lot of what you do is help people work through conflict, either that they have with somebody who is not present in the counseling, or for people together to try to work through conflict. Tell us a little bit about what you have seen to be some of the key factors in having conflict in the first place, like what produces conflict? And then let's talk about what are some of the key factors in resolving conflict well. So, what causes it, and then what helps to resolve it?
Faith Bjorklund: Well, what causes it is two people who are in relationship together, because anytime that you have two sinful people, which covers all of us, you are going to have two wills, and two ways of looking at things. And two people who have their own set of goals and values. And since none of us are exactly alike, there are going to be inevitable differences in how we see things and in the goals that we want in a relationship.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, let's just dive into that for a moment. Competing goals, two people whose wills are different, creates conflict. So, what specifically in that arena, tends to trigger the conflict, because obviously, as you said, just two people in general will have a conflict of wills, and therefore that will happen. But sometimes two people with two different wills will get along beautifully. You know, you put two college students together in a dorm room and some kids, it's like not a problem. They just meld together. And then another set of two students come together, and it's a huge explosive problem. So, what is it about how they manage their own wills that creates the conflict versus allowing some people to have very little of it?
Faith Bjorklund: Well, the issue is how we handle conflict. I think differences will always happen. How do we respond to conflict? And I think there's different styles that people have. Let's use that example of college roommates. You know, some college roommates are just going to be chill, differences will arise. Or somebody will say, well, I want this bed, and maybe they want that bed too. But a person who is just naturally avoidant of conflict does not like it and wants to avoid it at all costs, will just say oh, you know what, you can have that bed, that is fine. They will give in because they want to keep that peace. And some people are wired that way when it comes to conflict. Other people are going to say, oh, no, no, no, no, you know, you are not going to get your way. We are going to have to really, you know, kind of duke this out, and I do not want to lose. I would rather have my will carried out, and I will be willing to create discomfort and conflict if I have the chance of doing that. So, you can give in, or you can be a fighter, you know, wanting your way. Or some people I think, just naturally really dislike conflict so much that they will withdraw and avoid it at all costs.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, it's important there, I think, if I am hearing you correctly. Is that sometimes a lack of perceived conflict does not mean that there is not conflict, it just means that one person has withdrawn or yielded to such an extent that you are not seeing the conflict. And so sometimes, the sense that there is no conflict might mean that you are not getting the full expression of that person's well-being expressed in that situation.
Faith Bjorklund: Absolutely. And that's kind of a red flag if I hear couples say, well, we don't disagree about anything. I think, well, somebody is not telling the truth.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's usually pre-marriage couples, right?
Faith Bjorklund: Right. Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yes. Yes. We never fight.
Faith Bjorklund: But even married couples, that have been married for 20 years, and they say, oh, we don't disagree, we never fight, we never disagree on anything. Then to me, that is a little flag of okay, if you are in the relationship, and if you are being authentic, you are going to disagree about some things. I mean, the question is, really, how do we handle the disagreement when it comes up?
Kurt Bjorklund: So, let's talk about that. And, obviously, there are a lot of times of conflict. And right now, in our country, there are a lot of conflicts around public policy and political views. So, people who may not have felt a lot of conflict for a season, right now might feel like they have conflict, with family members who have different views, with people at work, or different people. And then there's very intense personal conflicts where you are in a defined relationship. You know, again, the roommates, coworker, boss, employee, marriage, and family. So, there's different types of conflict that require different approaches, in terms of how we think about it. So, let's talk first about general conflict with people that you are not in a boundaried relationship with. And then let's talk a little bit about a more boundaried relationship. What do you say would be significant to resolving conflict or addressing conflict when you do not have a clear boundary around the relationship?
Faith Bjorklund: I think the principles will work in either setting. The first thing that comes to mind is honestly, I think the best rubric for resolving conflict comes to us from the book of James, the first chapter of James. I think it's verse 19 and 20, where it says, let everyone be slow to speak, quick to listen, slow to speak slow to get angry, quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. And it says, because man's anger does not accomplish the righteousness of God. So, the first piece of that is just being quick to listen. And I mean, I do not know of anything that is more opposite maybe of what is happening right now in social media, and in the political arena. People are not quick to listen to an opposing point of view, a different point of view. I think even when you watch political shows, it's all you know, very much, I'm going to bring up an idea, then I'm going to slam the other side of this, and I'm going to just drive it into the ground and prove to you that I'm right. But it's not about listening and understanding and empathizing with a different point of view.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, let's dive into that for a moment. How do you listen well? Because I know even when you and I have conflict, a lot of times, what will happen is I will assume that I know what is being communicated and want to jump to a solution instead of being quick to listen. I will just say, okay, I know what you are saying. So, here is my solution. Let's be done with this. And I short circuit the process that sometimes is helpful. So how do how does somebody who says okay, I want to be better at this develop skill to be quick to listen?
Faith Bjorklund: First, stop talking. We really need to stop talking - slow to speak. Ask people open ended questions, let them talk, and do not interrupt them. I mean this seems so common sense, but if you are not talking, you are listening first, or at least you are starting the process of listening. I think then when you are drawing out another person, and letting them talk, and letting them get their thoughts out, if you can then mirror back to them what they are saying to you as accurately as you can, that will help. Give me an example and I will mirror it back to you.
Kurt Bjorklund: I like the shirt you have on.
Faith Bjorklund: So, you really like the shirt I am wearing right now. Okay, I am not making any judgement about whether I believe you or whether that is a good opinion to have, I am just mirroring back to you what you said to me. If we can get away from an emotional reaction, a justification, a defense of what's being said and just say let me understand you, you said this, let me give this right back to you in the way that you said it, and make sure that I understood you. I mean it's such a basic thing to say, and it's so difficult to do in the moment if something is emotionally charged.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, what happens, a lot of times is we have already made up our mind about what something is or is not. And so, when somebody says something to us that does not fit with us, we want to defend that viewpoint, and we feel like if we empathize or listen well, that we are giving justification to the opposite viewpoint. And so, it does not feel natural sometimes to do what James one talks about or to empathize, whatever word you want to use for that. When that is the thing that allows you to know that you have heard the other person, to let them know that you have heard them, and to then be able to disagree well, because a conflict sometimes is resolved by one person changing their mind. But often, it's resolved by people saying we see this differently and that is okay, because I understand and respect where you are coming from. And to get there, though, you must listen long enough to say, okay, I am hearing you on this issue, rather than I have an opinion that you need to agree with, or we are in serious conflict.
Faith Bjorklund: I think that is the most important thing is getting through that listening phase, so that the other person that you are disagreeing with, has a chance to completely express themselves. And then after that happens, and you have maybe even empathized with that person, like okay, I understand why you feel that way, I understand what you are saying, it makes sense to me, and validating that a bit. Just you have this perspective, it makes sense to me, you are not crazy, I get it, I get why you feel that way, then you can move into sometimes problem solving in a really positive way to say okay, so this is how you see it. And this is your position on this. Okay, what are you concerned about? What is your concerns underneath of this position that you are taking? If you can get to that point where you can talk about deeper concerns beneath positions, then you can find that sometimes you have some of the same concerns that the other person has.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, this is part of why I asked the question at the beginning about is there a difference between boundaried and non-boundaried relationships. And here is what I mean by that phrase. Somebody from high school is a friend of mine on social media, and they have a completely different take on a whole host of issues than I have. But I do not necessarily talk to them or see them socially. They are a social media friend. That is a different relationship that requires, in my mind, a different level of commitment to resolution of conflict than a boundaried relationship. And by boundaried, again, I mean something where you are committed for at least a season to be working together, and interfacing on a consistent basis. The reason I bring this up, is I do not know that every conflict requires working through down to the end, with this level of I am committed to you. Because in a boundaried relationship, and where I'm going with this is, I think, ultimately, probably what is important is certainly the skills we are talking about, but it really is a commitment to saying I'm committed to being in relationship with you more than I'm committed to being right about my view. It does not mean I give up my view, but it means that that I am willing to listen, to do the hard work of listening and understanding, looking to understand what you are saying, where you are coming from, how and why you formed your opinions. And sometimes that's hard because sometimes people, even in boundaried relationships, will not give you the same respect. And so what makes that hard sometimes is it can feel very sacrificial, where you are sitting and having a conversation with somebody, and you are constantly trying to understand their point of view, and they never reciprocate. But there is something to that in a boundaried relationship. Whereas again, in a general relationship, I am not sure that there's always that same requirement to work at. Now I think if you want to understand and go down that path, great. If you are going to engage, I think that is especially important. But sometimes it's okay, just to say, they have that opinion, I have this opinion, and I am moving on. And I do not need to engage when it's general. But it's not an okay general operating approach when we are in a committed relationship.
Faith Bjorklund: I agree. I agree. I think that is a good distinction. I think for distant friendships, social media, things like that, or, you know, neighbors who you are not close to, to say, you think that way, I think this way, we can still be friends. We do not need to hammer this one out. I get that. In close relationships, the challenge is to get again, underneath of those positions to what are the concerns that we both have, so that we can find a way to move forward through this problem and find a solution that is going to meet concerns on both sides. And maybe you must think outside of the box to find that solution that is going to work for both of you and meet both concerns. Let's think of a concrete example of that. Okay, so we disagreed about having our dog on the sofa. And when we talked about it, your concern was, they are going to ruin the sofa. And you also do not want the dog to feel free to jump on any sofa either.
Kurt Bjorklund: And when we have company over, I don't want them jumping on company, and I don't want the sofa to just get smelly, dirty doggy.
Faith Bjorklund: My concern was, why have a dog if you can't cuddle with your dog on the sofa? Because that is one of the best parts of dog ownership. Right?
Kurt Bjorklund: That was what it came down to.
Faith Bjorklund: Okay, so I heard your concerns. You heard my concerns. This was not an easy one. But I think what we came to was the dogs can't come up unless they are invited up by the owner. That was the solution that I came to.
Kurt Bjorklund: Is that how it works?
Faith Bjorklund: And the other thing was okay, we are not going to let them up on other sofas in the house. Which, again, have I been inconsistent with that? Sure. If I had been able to stick with that, it would have been a good example.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, this example may not be a good one, because my wife completely got her way. And I just caved, is really what that one is about. So, we need a different example. I'm not sure.
Faith Bjorklund: It's a great example. Um, let's think of something.
Kurt Bjorklund: Here is, I think, a better way to think about this because that is a tangible conflict that we had. But most of our conflicts aren't that tangible and actionable, where there is a position, and a position, and we are trying to find concerns and address them and all of that, most of our conflicts are more irritation level where somebody says something or does something that feels inconsiderate or ignorant to us, and we must decide how do I engage those people?
Faith Bjorklund: I have an example. It just happened yesterday. I was working on a mental to do list, and I went out in the garage to get something when I just was overcome with the disarray in our garage like, this is a mess. And I have been wanting to deal with this, and I have not done it yet. And I came into you and said, you know, when are we going to work on our garage? We need to do this.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, you came in and wanted me to share your urgency with the garage project.
Faith Bjorklund: And you were extremely helpful in that moment because you did not react defensively, you said, we do need to get to that. This is what is on my plate right now in this present moment. And you gave me like four things that showed me where your head was, and the things that were urgent for you that had to be dealt with. And when I heard those things, I immediately had an empathic response. I don't know if you remember. I'm like, okay, whoa, like I came in with my agenda to you. I was not sensitive to where you were. But as soon as you shared your life with me in a way that was not ordinary, you were just like, here is my reality right now. And I appreciated you saying, I see that need and we will get to that, I can't deal with that right now because this is what I'm right in the middle of right now. And that brought me to a better place of understanding.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yes. And that's years, obviously, of marriage, in the sense of I knew that in that moment, it was very urgent for you. And I really had a choice, having again, understood you, that I either get defensive and upset that you are trying to get me to share your urgency when I have other urgent things, or I shut down. And it sounds like yesterday, at least, I handled it better in that I was able to say I acknowledge this is important, but it's not my priority today. And then you handled it well, by being able to say, okay, I'm going to step away right now, and we will revisit this in a couple of days, or whenever we can get this on the schedules as a family. I think that is a good example. And that is probably one that is appropriate, because that is the kind of thing that can become huge in a relationship very quickly, like where you get hurt because it's like, you don't understand what I have going on, you are never supportive of the projects I want to do, you know, on and on.
Faith Bjorklund: And that is interesting that you mentioned what happens in our heads, when that kind of a conflict happens. I think it's so easy to start. Two things, making assumptions about the other person's motives. And then putting together the other thing that we do sometimes is we say, oh, this time is just like this time, and this time, and this time, and we start to organize this little history in our heads of all the times when this person has done this or said this. And it's been just like this, and because this is what they do, and this is how they are. And we start to make these general characterizations about this is who this person is, and what he thinks, and what motivates him. Nine times out of ten, we are over blowing a situation, and that is unfair.
Kurt Bjorklund: All you were really thinking in that moment was the garage needs to be addressed, and we need to get this addressed. Let us put it here. And although I don't completely agree with you that it's that dire, but you were not thinking all kinds of other things. That was what was probably really in your mind. And, so yes, we can overblow our stories is absolutely one of the problems. So, one of the takeaways here, besides being quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger, and this fits into the slow to anger, is to make sure that we are responding to what's reality and not something that we are creating that is driving the anger. Because the anger stories often come from, this is like the last seven times I have asked you to do something, and you were not responsive. You don't care about me. You are not present. You are too focused on things outside the house, you know, like we build up this case in our minds. And that is a lot of times where our anger is rather than then rooted in the single event that just happened.
Faith Bjorklund: I love how Brene Brown talks about this. When we start to build a story in our head about what another person is thinking about us. And the way that she suggests, and I think this has been successful with some couples that I have worked with, is just to simply say, okay, this thing happened, and this is how I saw it. But the story in my head, is that you were thinking? This is that, is that right? Or not? Am I off? And just taking the time to say, this is what my brain is doing right now. It's creating this little story about you that you don't care about me, or that you did this to hurt me, and I'm just checking in with you. Is that reality? And that gives the other person a chance to say, and nine times out of ten, this is going to be the stories that the person is going to say, no, I was not thinking that. I was thinking this. And I was not intending to hurt you at all. And I'm sorry if that did hurt you. And it gives a chance just to check in and say, what's reality here? And it takes the pride and the defensiveness away from the person who is sharing to.
Kurt Bjorklund: And obviously, you need a safe relationship to do that. Because otherwise, that can even be turned back against that person. You know, how could you assume that I said, all that when all I did was this, like, like in an unsafe relationship, that is even a dangerous thing to say. But being able to back off those stories, even for ourselves, and just say, let me just deal with the incident that was, and make sure that I'm not projecting into these other incidences from the past. If somebody consistently says, hey, I will be home at you know, such and such a time, and then they come home later. You know, at some point, it's hard to deal with that as an isolated instance, because it feels like a pattern of disrespect, or a pattern of you don't care, you always prioritize something else. But I think, again, to deal with the conflict in a healthy way, you must then say, okay, this one incident was not a big deal. And so, I'm not saying you don't expand it, but it feels big because it happened 10 other times this month, and therefore, now I'm feeling something disproportional when this happens. And so being able to even identify why we feel what we feel allows us to address conflict in a way that is healthier.
Faith Bjorklund: And it's also helpful to think about why the other person feels the way they feel. The issue of empathy is something that we don't talk about enough in conflict. I gave you the example of the when I came in with the garage thing. I mean, I was not feeling empathic until you shared in a non-defensive way with me just where you were. If we can get to a point of understanding the person who we think is hurting us, or is annoying us, like what is happening in their world. We have been married a long time, but for years, I felt like Sunday afternoon sports was annoying to me. Because in my mind, I felt like oh, here we go again, TV's on, there is no talking, and there are no activities outside of the house. This is just controlling our Sunday afternoon. And, you know, it's just a disconnection from me. And, you know, it felt I was interpreting that in a way that I was feeling devalued. And I remember one conversation we had that changed everything. When you talked about, and we had a polite conversation about it, what that meant to you on Sunday afternoon, not just as a chance to relax and disconnect, but just you shared this was important in my family. Like, this was one thing that connected me in my family. And it was just a safe place on Sundays to be together as a family doing this. And I remember that completely shifted the way that I was thinking about it. Instead of focusing on me, and me feeling left out, or me feeling like you are disconnecting from me, I just had a chance to love you in that. And to say, he loves this, this is meaningful to him, this serves a lot of purposes, and it has good associations for him, and because he loves it, I'm going to support it. And that is a choice to walk away from the conflict and instead say, I'm going to love and support you in this because it's meaningful to you.
Kurt Bjorklund: Any last words? What would you say to somebody who is in a boundaried relationship right now that is just toxic with conflict? What would you say to them as far as hopeful words?
Faith Bjorklund: This is going to be obvious, but if you are toxic, and you are having a tough time hearing each other and communicating in a respectful way, maybe it's really time to bring in a third party. And to just seek some help, get a counselor, or a pastor, or somebody you respect, a mentor, to help you sit and learn how to listen to each other again. And get to a safe place with a person who is helping to keep it safe. You can get to some of those core issues and find some healing and some resolution for them.
Kurt Bjorklund: Great, well, thank you for being a part of this conversation, Faith. Thank you for spending part of your day with us on Perspectives today. Content drops every Thursday morning. And so there will be a new podcast next week. And we are going to continue just to address prominent issues that impact all of us and hopefully bring a perspective to bear that can help us navigate the worlds that we live in even better.
