Perspectives Podcast - Black Lives Matter (BLM) Movement
Episode Description
In this episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, has a conversation with Josiah Leuenberger, Dr. Terry Thomas, Brad Frey, and Doug Bradbury to have a conversation about the Black Lives Matter (BLM) movement in America, the difference between the movement and the organization, how Christians can affirm the phrase "black lives matter" while rejecting the worldview of the organization, and more.
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Episode Transcript
Kurt Bjorklund: Hey, welcome to our new podcast that we're calling Perspectives. This is something that we're doing here at Orchard Hill to address current issues, and hopefully help bring a biblical perspective to them. And we chose the title perspectives intentionally because our hope is that although we'd like to clarify sometimes what the Bible says, a lot of how we think about things isn't clearly articulated in the Bible. It's more in the area of inferences or in the area of implications. And so, what we're hoping to do is take current issues and talk about what the Bible clearly teaches and then how the implications work themselves out. So, I'm joined today by Josiah Leuenberger. Welcome Josiah.
Josiah Leuenberger: Thanks. Good to be a part of the conversation today.
Kurt Bjorklund: Josiah teaches here at Orchard Hill and works with our young adults. Terry Thomas is with us who's a professor of New Testament at Geneva and also teaches here at Orchard Hill. Welcome Terry.
Terry Thomas: Thank you. Good to be here.
Kurt Bjorklund: And then we have two other guests, Brad and Doug, who are colleagues of Terry at Geneva. So, tell us who you have with us, Terry.
Terry Thomas: Dr. Brad Fry is the chair of the sociology department. He has a 35-year tenure teaching there at Geneva and also teaches the diversity courses at the master’s higher education program here as well and has done that for at least the last 15 years or so. And then Dr. Doug Bradbury teaches in the Biblical Studies Department as well. And in the last couple of years, he finished his doctoral program and had an award-winning dissertation about reconciliation. So, these guys have some good background in what we're talking about. Then there's me I, I said, I have a nice computer.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, that works. That works. Well, thank you for making time today to just be a part of this conversation. Here's the conversation we want to have today. Black Lives Matters is obviously everywhere, and what I've started to hear from certainly people of faith is how do we affirm the idea that people who are black matter, and at the same time, raise any concerns that there might be over the organization Black Lives Matter. But let's just start, Brad, since you have a lot of background in sociology and issues, tell us just how you're perceiving this cultural moment with Black Lives Matter.
Brady Fry: I think one of the one of the realities is that we cyclically revisit these issues in our society. And it seems like each time we do we sort of open up new aspects of them. Not completely different than the events that sort of surrounded Rodney King back in the 90s or certainly similarities with the civil rights issues in the 60s. But it seems like at this moment, at least what I've noticed, there's also the people of color, and especially people of color of faith, who in the past have sort of hung back and haven't had a whole lot to say about what's going on. They might have very strong opinions, but just haven't talked about that much. I've heard them speaking much more forthrightly about having to tell my male children, you know, what happens when you get stopped. Talking about their own experiences of having been stopped on their way to the store to get a loaf of bread, things like that. So, it just seems like we really are in some kind of moment. Although I'm not sure it's completely clear what that moment is.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So, a significant moment certainly in our country, and I think anybody, whether they have sociology as a background or not, just seeing the intensity, scope, and breadth of what's going on would have to say this is a moment that is unique. It certainly is in my lifetime. I wasn't around in 1968 so I don't have that in my memory. But certainly, even what took place in the early 90s doesn't rival what's happening today. And so now, Terry, you were around in 1968. So, do you have any perspective on this moment, and then really what I'd like us to start to talk about is, what's the difference between what people perceive just with the idea of Black Lives Matter and how the organization has structured itself?
Terry Thomas: I do think we have more fully culture wide dialogue about these issues right now. And whether that's because of the increase in the possibility of communication via the internet, some people argue about how that's made the world smaller, so to speak, because you can get more information more quickly. But also, I think we have a population that's a little more diverse than there was in the 60s. And we have one that is a little more sensitive to issues of inclusion and diversity. And so, the revisiting, as Brad was kind of talking about of these same issues, has a new fertile field to grow in. I looked at a publication earlier that said that the United States populations perception of Black Lives Matter varies according to race. However, the majority of Americans across all racial and ethnic groups have expressed support for the Black Lives Matter movement. A 2020 Pew Research Center poll found that 60% of whites, 77% of Hispanic, 75% of Asians, and 86% of African Americans either strongly support or somewhat support the Black Lives Matter movement. Now, here's the thing. If you were to go back to the origin of the Black Lives Matter, which is back around 2014, or something like that, you wouldn't have had that kind of support. You wouldn't have seen that kind of thing. But there's been so many things in the news, so many issues, and the responses to them, in the sense of protests and concerns about the justices that are clearly evident, has made it a larger issue in the nation among people. However, that's about the Black Lives Matter movement, not necessarily about the organization of Black Lives Matter. The organization Black Lives Matter seems to be a behind the scenes sort of thing in that regard. It's a collection of, as I understand it, decentralized groups usually in major cities where there's a larger African American population, and usually in places that have generated an organizational expression, where there have been several public and well known acts of injustice to African Americans.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, so although it's decentralized, I think one of the things that's significant is there still is an organization that is helping to drive some of that. And I would make the analogy to the Catholic Church, and certainly anybody who's ever paid attention to the Catholic Church at all would say, not every Catholic Church is monolithic in what it believes, they have a lot of different nuances in any context, but there's still an organization behind it that puts out official beliefs and says this is how we function or what we believe even if everyone who operates under the umbrella doesn't believe it. And so, it's still fair to address what is the umbrella organization and what does it say. And so, with that, what I'd like to do is just ask a couple other questions here.
Terry Thomas: Can I say one thing about that, though.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, absolutely.
Terry Thomas: There is one difference though between the Catholic Church and the Black Lives Matter. One is the Black Lives Matter organization is not confessedly Christian organizations. That's not part of what their attempt is. And I think that the second thing is, they don't have an organizational hierarchy. That decentralization does make a big deal. The Catholic Church does have hierarchies. When you don't have a natural hierarchy to your organization, that allows your decentralized groups to be a little more individualized in terms of the expressions of what is the generally held policies of the organization that you want to emphasize, address, and so forth and so on.
Kurt Bjorklund: Absolutely. But it doesn't change that there are some things that the Black Lives organization puts out that it says these are things we stand for and believe. Even if everyone who operates in that agenda doesn't necessarily even know those things, or necessarily agree with them, it doesn't change the fact that they're there. And, on some level again, it's fair then to assess those because it's publicly stated. So, with that, let me just ask Doug and Josiah maybe just to jump in here. Why don't we start with Doug and then we'll hit Josiah. Doug, what do you see as some challenges to Black Lives Matters organizational statement, and what those might be from your vantage point? And then the other thing that I've heard people talk about is it seems like there's not a condemnation of any violence coming from Black Lives Matter, and how are people to think about that? So, Doug, why don't you jump in and then we'll hit Josiah.
Doug Bradberry: Well, I think that one, these issues are very complex. And there's many overlying layers that we have to try to consider. I think that the notion of Black Lives Matter, it's important to realize, and for many white evangelical Christians, what they don't understand is that Black Lives Matter itself is a lament. It's a lament for people who are brown skin and black skin, who say, we no longer are going to watch our bodies be killed in the streets. The social and historical conditions, the events that were going on, sort of created this eruption in terms of this lament or outcry. And so, I do think that is a significant piece of the movement. And those other layers of social interest get involved in there because I think it's an issue around injustice. As they're trying to put together a coalition of people, injustice is injustice, and that's injustice. And so, how do you begin to look at injustice structurally? And I think some of the systemic things that are being addressed, for instance, the wealth gap and those sorts of things, I think that it's easy for many of us, white evangelicals, to dismiss those structural things by focusing on well, we don't like the representation within the organization or some of the things that are being said, and it detracts away from the issue of injustice that they're trying to address.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's well said. And I certainly would agree that I think that's even part of the point of this conversation is to say, we want to be for justice and those who are who are hurting, but how do we square that though with some things that are hard to square with a consistent biblical worldview? Josiah what have you seen as you've looked at this?
Josiah Leuenberger: Yeah. Just to kind of hash out that difference, their statement versus organization. First of all, I would want to say that as a follower of Jesus, a strong conviction that all people are made in the image of God, that's a real value for me. And so, when I see folks who are being oppressed or mistreated, I want to seek solutions and be active in that. And so that statement, Black Lives Matter, it's not a statement that other lives don't, but really addressing an urgent concern when we see situations unfolding like we've had in our culture at present. And I really like the way that Pastor and Author Randy Alcorn puts it, he says, "Black lives do matter because it really brings out that conception that it's not that others don't, but we have an urgent concern for those who are most in need." And so then thinking about the organization, something that I think is fascinating when you really dig into the organization, is that Black Lives Matter is really a worldview driven organization. And when you get on the organization's web page, much like a church, they actually have a section that is titled, We Believe. What they do on this section of the website is hash out the convictions that undergird their practices and beliefs. And what you'll see as you work your way through this is, there is a clear communication that there is a Marxist worldview behind some of their conception. And in the We Believe section, there is the word comrades used on multiple occasions, which is fascinating to me. And the founders of the organization, Patrice Colors and Alicia Garza, I'm not putting words in their mouths, they have referred to themselves as trained Marxists. And so if you know anything about the Marxist ideology, just to share a little bit, it's kind of divorced from any biblical understanding of values of right and wrong and a recognition of sin as being an essential problem that we as human beings need to overcome in order for us to best function in this world. And as a result, I think as you work your way through their ideology, you're going to see some things promoted, that I think would be very different from the way that we want to seek solutions within the church.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, and let's drive that just a little further. What would be some of those things that might be at odds with a church? I'll just name one that I remember very clearly from reading through it. As they say on the website that they're committed to the destabilization (I forget if that's the exact word) of the nuclear family, meaning they want to destabilize the whole idea of a mom and a dad and kids living together in a home. And again, that's an idea where you say, okay, that's certainly not a biblical idea and can be very destructive in a society. And again, I think sociology would say that you know, no matter how you look at it, families with two parents do better than families with one, and so on. And so, to even have that as a statement seems to be one of those things that's again, hard. Now, again, I think it's fair to say not everyone who's out saying Black Lives Matter, would agree with that, or maybe even know that that's there.
Brad Fry: Well, I think part of this is, it is always a challenge for those of us who are Bible believing Christians to figure out how we associate with groups that aren't, and what part we're on board with and not on board with. This is the daily challenge of living in a secularized society. And so, I don't think we should put down our guard at any point with regards to the Black Lives Matter movement and say however we enter into that, we're always going to be cautious. I would just say a couple things in response to the tension around the movement. After the George Floyd shootings, we had some protests, even in a little town like Beaver Falls. The people who led the protests were all 30 years younger than me and younger. They were 20 and 30 somethings, and they were all very Christian. And this gets back to what Terry was saying about this sort of decentralized thing. So, if you didn't know anything about the movement and just showed up at that rally, you'd say, I'm all in as a Christian. The second thing is that historically, what's always happened is for those of us who are in the church. M.L.K. was always charged with being a Marxist, and there were some parts of Marx that he embraced. He thought that Marx was probably right about the way workers were treated, and the way the capitalist system didn't work really well for everyone. And I'd like to know to whether sometimes when people are marginalized, and they're just completely fed up, that they'll put labels on themselves, just to alienate. They might just be saying we're going to figure out what will alienate you the most and we'll claim it first. So, it's not something I'm condoning. I'm just saying that happens sometimes. But it's been historically, at least for a century we've used Marxism as a way for us in the church, to dissociate ourselves from any sort of reform movement. And I think the one thing that behooves us is, if we're going to make that critique of the Black Lives Matters movement, that we show some Christian or Evangelical or whatever movement that is getting at the things we think ought to get at. But typically, what we do is we say, yeah, no, I can't join them because of that, and then we really don't do much at all in response. So that would be my concern is that historically, that we don't fall back into that same pattern of saying, well, they're right about this, they're wrong about this, therefore, I just can't participate and then do nothing.
Kurt Bjorklund: Right. Well, Brad, I think that's a good caution. At the same time, I would also say, but it doesn't eliminate the tension that still exists, if there's things that you say, okay, it's hard to support that. I mean, if you take even something when you talk about decentralization, like there's nowhere on their website that I'm aware of, that says we believe in the use of violence. And so, you know, when you have violence happening in our cities, I think the approach there would at least be to say, I can't condone that, or taking somebody's life, or burning property and taking on police unprovoked in order to make a point. It doesn't mean that I'm against what you're stating as your main point. But that piece of it is hard. And so, there still has to be some discernment and a willingness to address those things.
Josiah Leuenberger: Yeah, I just think that in following Jesus, recognizing Jesus heart for restoration, so many times in the gospels he performed these beautiful redemptive works for people certainly showing his heart for those who are most in need. But when Jesus met those physical needs, when he did those works of restoration, he did so in a way that always drew people's attention to his unique ability to meet their ultimate need. And so for me, in seeking justice and to restore people and culture right now, where there's a lot of brokenness that we're seeing in relationships and in society, I want to do so in seeking solutions in such a way that would draw people to recognize that Jesus has an ability not to just meet our felt needs in a moment, but our ultimate need is humanity. And so my concern about the Black Lives Matter movement is that it's seeking solutions in a way that does not recognize the ultimate need of human beings, which is a solution to our sin problem that Jesus is unique in his ability to bring healing in that regard.
Terry Thomas: Okay. Although, you could say the same sort of thing about the democratic political system of the United States. In other words, it seeks to address the pressing needs of people in a just way, but it does not have a commitment to connect that to their pressing need to see one make a commitment to Jesus Christ, and yet we participate in the democratic system.
Josiah Leuenberger: We don't say it's our ultimate hope.
Terry Thomas: Right. Yeah. But we do participate in it. We do have a way in which we think has value in addressing important issues, and as Christians, we feel that we should be responsibly involved in that same way. So, in some ways you do the same thing. You don't have to approve of everything the United States government does in order to be involved in the democratic system as a Christian.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, Terry, let me ask this question. And this can be for any of the Bible or sociology profs. among us. And that is, should there be a concern about Marxism? And how is that incompatible with faith or is it not incompatible with faith? Because if that's one of the things that's labeled here, and again, not labeled, it's self-identified from the founders as being part of their agenda, and I think anybody who kind of knows a little bit about it could say, once you start the class identification and stratification, that's at least a social construct of Marxism, saying anybody who's outside of these groups is abusing power of the lesser groups in terms of the power structure. So, what part of that would you say that's good and we need to learn from it because it's based on critical race theory and some of those ideas that have been around for a long time? What parts of that do you say squares with biblical understanding? And where should it be a cautionary moment for people who want to be biblical in their thinking?
Doug Bradberry: I would say this, you know, I think that we have to be really careful with how we read Jesus, particularly in the context of his death. Because what I think Marxism does address rightly, is it asks the questions about power, and where is power being used to hold people down. And if you look at the life of Jesus, well, Jesus did address those very things. And in their religious power at that time, of course, were set up by all these very legalistic purity laws. Now, it's interesting as we talked about not wanting to identify with these other traditions or groups that are connected with Black Lives Matter, that clearly speaks against scripture. But isn't it interesting that Jesus himself was known as a glutton and a drunkard because of the type of people that he actually had table fellowship with? And so over and over again, all throughout the Gospels, we read Jesus going into the homes of those who are considered as sinners. Sinners at this time, we're clearly designated because they were not able to go to the temple and perform those purity rights. And because of that, it was very clear definition of who was in and who was out. And so, Jesus Himself is the one who confronted the abuse of power that was happening within the social structures of his day. I do think that we have to look closely at the work of Jesus as He was engaging socially in his day as well.
Brad Fry: We have over a century of experience to say, Marxism as a social system does not work. Wherever it's been made the central way to organize the social life of a nation, it just doesn't work. And it continues to demonstrate that year-in and year-out. So, just as we're trying to make a distinction between the organization of Black Lives Matter and the movement of Black Lives Matter, you can probably do something similar with Marxism and say, Marxism as a social system is a complete failure. Marx as an individual, really distorted fellow, but a brilliant, philosopher and theorist, and so while we disagree with his overall sense, it doesn't mean that he didn't have some insights into the nature of our world and the way things work. And so, I guess I'm just as somebody who I would say, yeah, you can learn some things from Marx. I don't agree with him, but I think he learned something from him. So, to just throw that label on somebody, seems to be, what Doug was talking about where especially when it comes from those have us like me, who's an old white guy in power, when I use labels like that, that doesn't leave much room for dialogue on is there anything there or not?
Kurt Bjorklund: I think we want to do is be open to discussing ideas. And part of I think even this podcast is to say, how do we discuss these ideas and have an honest conversation about them? I don't think it's throwing a label on this, I think, again, they've self-identified as the founders that this is where they're coming from. Now again, that doesn't mean every person engaged in it is. That's not what I'm saying. And that's where I think you're saying Brad about putting a label on it. But there still needs to be an ability to deal with that question. And Doug, you'd mentioned the idea of Jesus and table fellowship. But table fellowship is very different than working with an organization, that's counter to something. Jesus was very much about upsetting the social structure and demonstrating his willingness to go to people who were outsiders. But he also at the same time, didn't work with the Pharisees, because they had a couple of good things. He went at him hard, you know, completely. And so, you know, you can spin the Jesus example a couple different ways, when you start to talk about how Jesus would interact with something in our day and age, in terms of that. And so, I guess as I'm looking at this, my concern is twofold. One, that the reason for Black Lives Matter having a moment like it is, is too quickly dismissed by too many Christians by putting a label on it, if you want to use that phrase. But it's also that people are undiscerning in being able to say, there are some issues here. If you go to the violence issue that's going on, like looting, some of how people get to where they feel justified in that is by saying there's a power imbalance. And the companies and people who run that have power, I don't, therefore, I'm justified in taking stuff from them and rioting in a city. And so, you have to be able to call that out at the same time as being able to say, there's some legitimate concerns here, obviously, that are driving the moment that we're living in.
Doug Bradberry: But if you go back to one of the things that Brad was saying is what alternatives do white evangelical churches offer to these issues of injustice. And historically, if you look at Martin Luther King, Jr., his famous letter from Birmingham, was a letter written to the white clergy. Because in the midst of hate, these lives are being shredded, and no one stepped up to identify with them. And so, here's the interesting thing. I think in the midst of the Black Lives Matter movement, it's another way for some folks just to other the organization. And what I mean by that is, if I can other you, I've determined what you're about, but I don't have to engage in the conversation or what's coming out of that relationship. And that's what happened with King. When King would go into a town, they saw him as an outsider, troublemaker, or stirring up those pots. So historically, white Christians have traditionally used words like troublemaker as a way of maintaining status quo. And I think we have to be really careful and recognize that we bring certain biases and histories into this conversation. And what we really want to do is have a sober judgment on what does it mean for the church to walk alongside our black and brown brothers and sisters? How do we see them as kin? And how do we see them as family? Rather than well, I see them as black, or I see them as poor. Which in that case, many of our ministries or other people, have to see you as black and poor in order for me to do ministry with you, rather than I see you as family. I see you as a brother and sister. And that's a different conversation in the midst of what we're talking about here because that's a different way of seeing all together.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's well put Doug. And clearly one of the things that's important is for people to actually know other people who are from different backgrounds, because then all of a sudden, you start to have real conversations about real issues with real people. And it's one of the things that I'm pleased that we've been able to do here at Orchard Hill is offer groups to people where they can sit and talk with people from different ethnic backgrounds about these issues during this time. We're kind of running out of time, Doug, we'll take that as kind of your final statement. Terry, Brad and Josiah, why don't each of you just kind of give us your final thoughts on this issue?
Brad Fry: I would just finish by saying, Kurt, I really appreciate you having the conversation because I think for those of us who are white evangelicals, we just haven't been willing to have the conversation enough. And for Josiah, you had mentioned before the reality of reconciliation, and I think that that is one of the deep resources we have in the Christian tradition is that Jesus can bring people together that a culture just can't. And so, if you leave Jesus out of the equation, the hope that somehow, we're going to get this put back together seems pretty remote to me.
Terry Thomas: I guess what I'd say is that when you make that distinction between the movement and an organization, I wonder of the movement, how many of those folks are Christians and are motivated to be involved in what they're doing from Christian principles. I don't know if there's been research done on that or something like that. But it seems to be that the church maybe hasn't supplied the avenue always to be able to supply a structural way to be involved. And so, an organization, like the Black Lives Matters, takes advantage of the moment and says, well, we'll organize it. When in fact, maybe the majority of people who are involved in the movement are actually doing it out of some kind of Christian principle.
Josiah Leuenberger: I would just say something that's on my mind is as someone who's serving in the church right now, there's a great variety of difference and understanding on how we can best meet the needs of people in our culture. And so, one of my aims is to just keep people unified in the church around the gospel and to say how can we help? What can we do to help? I think that right now there's a real tendency to find alignment with one side of this issue or another, there's a dichotomy going on where you either believe, and you're on one team or another. I think a lot of self-righteousness can kind of play out on either side with an understanding of how you're measuring up to what you believe the correct standard is. And so, I want to keep all of us centered on the fact that there's a standard of righteousness that God commands us to, but not one of us can meet it. Thank God for His grace and Jesus, and how can we reach out to others with grace in response to the grace he's brought to us? So, I certainly don't want to say let's just stop at talking or let's stop at ideas, but how can we get active and bringing grace and mercy to the people in our world?
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, and I would just add this and that is, what's sad to me in this moment is how political this has become so quickly. Meaning I think people have chosen upsides and politicized on this when I would like to think, and I'm sure people on either side will think I'm wrong about this, who politicize it, but there's more agreement than there is disagreement, I think. And what I mean by that is I do think that there's a lot of people who say there are issues that need to be addressed, and we do want to see justice and equality from both sides of the aisle. But unfortunately, sometimes it becomes politicized. And even within the church subculture, it becomes that, and churches line up either as right or left, and kind of make it, that's their thing. Rather than saying we want to bring people together in Christ, and we want to point to an ultimate solution while working for every earthly solution we can at the same time. And that's certainly what we hope happens. Well, with that, thank you for taking some of the day just to partake in this conversation about perspectives. And you can continue to find this content wherever you get podcasts and also at the Orchard Hill website or church app. All of that's available there. So, thank you, Terry, Doug, Brad, and Josiah for being part of the conversation today.
