Episode Description

This episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, talks with Director of Young Adult Ministry, Josiah Leuenberger, about if praying to Mary or anyone else is biblical, Christian creeds that talk about Jesus going to Hell, and why God allows suffering and abuse.

Episode Transcript

Kurt B: Hey, welcome to Ask a Pastor today. I'm joined by Josiah Leuenberger. Welcome.

Josiah L: Thank you. Great to be back.

Kurt B: Josiah serves as part of our adult ministry staff at our Wexford campus. And today we're going to jump into several questions that have been sent along. If you have questions you can send them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com. We'll be happy to address them in a coming episode. And, as always, if you have found this content helpful, leaving a comment, a like, following the content, any of that is helpful for other people to find the content. So that would be awesome if you would participate in that way.

Kurt B: So here's a question, Josiah, "Reading a prayer at a Catholic service I recently attended was asking Mary in heaven to pray for us. Can you pray to someone other than God in heaven and can someone in heaven pray to God on behalf of us?" So, what would be your quick answer or easy answer to that?

Josiah L: Yes. Well, I know this is really common in some Christian traditions, but I think that something that we really value here at Orchard Hill is that we want to make scripture our basis for any practice that we have in the church. And, for me, in my understanding of scripture, when I look to it, I don't see any biblical basis for praying to anyone other than God or Jesus. I believe that scripture is very clear that Jesus Christ came to be our mediator with God. And so, scripture really clearly, in Acts chapter four, there's no other name under heaven by which men must be saved. And so, when we think about a need for a mediator between us and God, that's so clearly to us Jesus and what He's done, He's come and laid down his life on the cross to restore us to our heavenly Father, forgiving us of our sin, making us legally right before God and our standing. And so, praying to Mary, praying to any other saint for an intermediary role there between us and God, that's just totally-

Kurt B: Well we don't need to, you already have a mediator. Jesus. And the reason when you do it is you come in Jesus' name. So often when we end a prayer by saying, "In Jesus' name," what we're doing is we're saying, "I've come through the mediation that you have- "

Josiah L: This is my basis for standing.

Kurt B: Have appointed. And so, those aren't magic words to throw onto the end of a prayer. They're actually words acknowledging the basis for your prayer. So sometimes it might be healthy to just say, "Father God or God as I come to you today, I'm coming because of the finished work of Jesus Christ, because this is how you bid me to come, invited me to come." And it's a way of taking it from magic words at the end into something that's altogether different. So if somebody does-

Josiah L: I love that. That gives us such confidence knowing that it is in Jesus' name that we come before God. Hebrews chapter four talks about Christ as our faithful, our compassionate high priest who has interceded for us with the Father. And so we can come in Jesus' name with confidence.

Kurt B: So a couple just followups to that with you. What about praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Is that neutral, okay, not okay, as opposed to God the Father?

Josiah L: Yeah, this is an off the cuff answer. But I would say that I don't see any issue with praying in Jesus' name. And I see, the same way as at the end of a prayer, saying, "In Jesus' name I pray. Amen." In a similar way, we could say, "Jesus, I want to bring these things to you. I want to thank you for this. I want to ask you for this. Or give me faith to trust you in this regard." I believe that's very similar. When I pray, oftentimes I would pray that the Holy Spirit would do a work in my life. But I won't pray to the Holy Spirit specifically by name. And I don't know that there's anything wrong with that. If someone would choose to do that, I would just say that, personally, that's not something I felt compelled to do.

Josiah L: I would also want to say that I do think that there not only is it unnecessary to pray to a mediator, I think it is unhelpful and I think that it is dangerous because you are putting something in your mind.

Kurt B: You're talking about a mediator besides Jesus.

Josiah L: Yeah. Yes. Sorry. To be clear, to pray to a saint, to pray to Mary, I think is a dangerous practice because it could create in our thought process an idea that we need a mediator other than Jesus, where in scripture it's very clear that He has accomplished the work that we needed to be made right with God, our heavenly Father, and we have direct access to God through Him.

Kurt B: Yeah. Not only that, it's completely wasteful in your time and energy because there's no indication that there's a listening or an access that's different than the access you have to God himself. And so, in a sense, it would be like me saying I'm going to ask Josiah for something, but I'm going to ask some high school buddy of yours who you haven't been in touch with for the last 15 years to intercede with you on behalf. Now, it just doesn't make any sense when I know you and I could say, "Well, I'm just going to come ask Josiah for something. And so it is dangerous, but it's also just frivolous and goofy when you can come through Jesus.

Josiah L: And we have His favor. Because of God's grace, we have Jesus' favor and His compassion, we don't need to come to Him and expect like, "Oh, man, maybe His mom will lean on Him and give us mercy."

Kurt B: Yeah. Maybe if I get the mom involved. I asked about the praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit, and you said you sometimes might pray to Jesus but not to the Holy Spirit. Actually, I don't think it's wrong to pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit because God is one, to address your prayers. But I think it's wise to model our prayers when Jesus has taught us in the way that Jesus has taught us. And He says very clearly in Matthew six, "Pray in this way, our Father who art in heaven." In other words, address it to the Father. You come in Jesus name.

Kurt B: And the reason I say that is I've witnessed some people, especially when they get into the idea of the Holy Spirit, where they think that if they pray to the Holy Spirit, somehow it has a better effect in eliciting the Holy Spirit's work than if they pray to God the Father. And it almost lends itself to a kind of modalism, which modalism is the idea that God exists almost in three different modes. And that if I want God the spirit to interact with something, then I should pray to God the spirit. If I want Jesus, if I want God the Father. And so I think it's wiser to just simply say, "I pray to God the Father," because that's what Jesus taught. I ask for the Spirit's work because that's part of what we can do, and I do it in Jesus' name. Rather than trying to fare it out, which thing is there.

Kurt B: Now, the reason I say I don't think it's wrong, if you're just praying and all of a sudden you're like, "Jesus," and it's what comes to mind, I don't think it's like, "Oh, don't do that." But I think if you're trying to understand and pray in a way that's in accordance with scripture, then to take something that's so clear as the Lord's prayer as your model is probably a wise move in terms of how we do that.

Josiah L: I like it so.

Kurt B: Well, thank you. So here's a question. "In the Apostles' Creed, it reads that he descended speaking of Jesus into hell on the third day, and he rose again. Christ, having descended into the underworld, is alluded to in the New Testament in 1 Peter 4:6, which states that the good tidings were proclaimed to the dead. The Son of God going to hell, have never heard anything on this." So, Josiah, enlighten all of us.

Josiah L: Oh, why don't I share a few thoughts.

Kurt B: Yeah, just give us some nuggets on a huge controversy among the church.

Josiah L: Yeah, I've got some notes written down on this one.

Kurt B: Okay.

Josiah L: I think, first of all, it's important to recognize that the creeds are secondary in their authority to scripture. First of all, the creeds are based on scripture, but they don't have the same weight to us that the Bible does. That's all to say, certainly we can't just throw the creeds out the window if we don't like one line in them. If we are at a place where we would say, "I'm not sure that this necessarily jives with me," because there are some things in the creeds that could make us uncomfortable that are totally based on scripture.

Josiah L: That said, there are some evangelicals, people in the stream of Christianity, where we would say the Bible is our authority. We believe that Jesus is unique in His ability to save us. People in that stream, that tradition of faith, where we would say, "Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with this line." In fact, one of those is a man, Wayne Grudem, who's written extensively in systematic theology, ways of understanding the Bible and God's nature. I was reading doing some preparation for this and it seems that he would be included in that camp. The passage that was shared in this question from 1 Peter as well as other passages in 1 Peter, specifically 3:18-22. It's his conviction, Wayne Grudem, that a clear exposition of those verses doesn't necessarily lead someone to an understanding that Jesus literally descended into hell, more so maybe an appropriate interpretation would be that Jesus, in His death on the cross, we need to consider the depth of what that truly meant in His separation from God and bearing the wrath of the sins of mankind.

Josiah L: And certainly there is a lot in the Bible that talks about Jesus' descent into the tomb. Any number of verses from the gospels. Matthew chapter 12, Jesus compares His burial to Jonah being in the belly of the whale. This place where Jesus was in the abyss, the place of the dead. Acts chapter two as well, Peter speaks out talking about Christ in the grave and Jesus' power and victory over the dead. Again in Ephesians chapter four and Romans chapter 10, Paul refers to Christ descent to the place of the dead.

Kurt B: So what's at stake?

Josiah L: Yes.

Kurt B: What's really, even hearing all of that, and I've actually written a paper on this, because I had Wayne Grudem in seminary, so he was really into it. So I had to learn.

Josiah L: What an unfair advantage.

Kurt B: But even hearing you read those, I just, to be honest, glossed over, like, "Aah."

Josiah L: Yes.

Kurt B: So, what's at stake? Why does this matter and how should somebody think about it?

Josiah L: Yeah. Here's the main point of those passages, and I think the main point of that is that line as well in the creed, it's that Jesus literally died on the cross to defeat sin and death by His own death. He experienced the wrath of God. He experienced death so that we don't have to. That's what's at stake, that Jesus laid down His life, that any one of us who would come to Him in faith would be able to share in His death, but also in His resurrection and receive new spiritual life. I think that's what's really at stake.

Kurt B: So why would somebody like Wayne Grudem or anybody else care that then the creed would say, "Descended into hell," if somebody understands that as simply Jesus defeating death? What's at stake from his vantage point that says, "I have to make it abundantly clear that that's not what the text teaches."

Josiah L: Yeah, they are people who would come down all differently across this. I think that some people would say that the phrase, "Jesus descended into hell," is a misrepresentation of what literally happened on the cross and in the time before Jesus was resurrected. John Calvin, I was reading his perspective on this. He talks about how he believes that that line is really a reference to Jesus suffering the Father's wrath on the cross for all who believe suffering the Father's wrath to pay the penalty for our sin. And that Jesus' descent occurred in His humiliation there, and also in bearing our sin on the cross, but not in His burial. I think that makes a lot of sense. That's a perspective that I could sign off on. The idea that Jesus literally descended into hell, I know that that makes some people uncomfortable. I don't know, what would you say is dangerous about that? Or what would you say is at stake there?

Kurt B: Well, I think the people who feel passionate about that issue and do things like write big dissertations on it would say Jesus was never subject to Satan in the sense of what it would mean to be in hell. And so, they would generally agree with the idea that He took the punishment, He took God's wrath, but that He was never subject to Satan and eternal punishment. Obviously not eternal. But that's what I think tends to be at stake besides just trying to say there's no true biblical warrant for saying this is actually how it went. So it gives you a false idea if you recite the creed.

Kurt B: So, for example, we'll recite the creed here at Orchard Hill, especially in our chapel Liturgical Service frequently and sometimes in our other services, and we'll change that line, not because we feel like we want to change everything, but we feel like on a whole it's great to say something with people from thousands of years. But because that one line probably is at least in dispute and unclear what its benefit is that will change that line when we say that for that reason. But I think that's generally what people feel is at stake and why that matters to people.

Josiah L: That makes a lot of sense to me. And something that Jesus communicated prior to His crucifixion is no one takes my life from me, I lay my life down on my own accord. And so, something I'll say from time to time about this is when Jesus dies on the cross, this is a terrible tragedy, but we don't need to feel bad for Him, because Jesus said, "I love you so much that I'm willing to lay down my life on your behalf." And so, for someone who would say, "I do believe that Jesus literally descended into hell," I think one way I could reconcile that is to say if Jesus was in some way subject to Satan over those three days, it's only because He said, "I am willing to, knowing that I am going to overcome you in the end." And so I guess that's one way I could reconcile that personally.

Kurt B: It's well put. All right, let's move on. This is more of a personal question than probably, it's theological, but it's maybe not wrestling over a specific phrase. It says, "I struggle with this and know that the world is not a perfect place, but when you pray for a child or for animal abuse to stop, why does God still let it happen to such innocent beings? It breaks my heart to hear of children and animals constantly being abused when they are so, so helpless to defend themselves, yet the evil prevails. God is good, but He still lets evil win over situations that believers are praying for that to stop. You never have to ask for bad things to happen because they do all on their own. Any feedback you can provide will help my doubt. I hate having feelings of doubt."

Josiah L: Yeah. Those are such hard situations and I feel for this person. I resonate with their struggles and frustration and just the sense of feeling like, "Man, we just hope for a better world." We hope for better for people who have been abused. We hope for better for God's creation. And so, I just want them to know, first of all, I hear you. Second of all, what I would say is scripture is clear that the world is not as God intended it to be when He created it, that through our willful disobedience and wanting to live as our own authority, that God over our own lives, we've disobeyed Him, and this brokenness is a result of our human sin.

Josiah L: And so, where I put my hope is in knowing that there's ultimately a day that's coming where God will do something to make right all that we have screwed up in our human brokenness. There's a day where He will make all things new, and that our God is a God of justice. I thank God for His grace because each one of us deserve his wrath in our sin. But through Jesus, we can be able to receive mercy and have hope in knowing that He will come again to judge and knowing that He will come again to restore. And I would say that, as Christians, we can recognize God's heart for restoration and God's heart for justice by seeking those things ourselves in the here and now. I think that is an appropriate way for us to wait. We could be passive and say, "You know what? There's a day that God's coming to restore. He'll ultimately bring justice. So let me worry about my own stuff and just take care of number one until that day." But I think that really we can be proactive in light of God's second coming and Jesus' second coming by partnering with Him in His redemptive work here and now. And that's also a powerful way we can be a witness as the church.

Kurt B: Yeah, absolutely. One thing that caught my attention in this question is the, "Any feedback you can provide to help my doubt. I hate having such feelings of doubt." I'm not sure that doubt is bad. Sometimes we get this idea that I should never question or doubt or have hard things trouble me. And I don't think it's bad that they do. And here's why I say that. The very fact that you ask the question actually points to the existence of God. Because if the world is truly not formed by a good God, then there wouldn't be this sense of it should be better. What you'd have instead is a survival of the fittest. If you look at the animal kingdom, again, we don't necessarily know what animals think. I'm not a pet psychologist, but it appears that an animal has no problem saying, "Well, if I'm going to take your life and leave you here because I need food, that's what I'm going to do." And because it's just the way it works.

Kurt B: And if you have a sense that people weren't created in the image of God and that the world just evolved and became what it is, then the sense of it should be better, there shouldn't be these things, all that is is natural selection playing itself out, in a sense, in a horrific way. But the fact that I think it's horrific is actually evidence of my faith, evidence of a yearning for things to be different, which is a yearning for God.

Kurt B: And so, even those doubts or those questions in a sense are pointing to something more ultimate, more beautiful. Now that doesn't mean that it's an easy out, like you go, "Oh, okay, there's bad things, therefore my yearning for God." Of course they're horrible. And what's really hard about it is if I pray for God to change it, why doesn't God change it?

Kurt B: And the answer to that isn't easy because we don't know the mind of God. We don't know why God does or doesn't do certain things. The only thing that we can hold on to in that is that at some level we assess good on probably too short term of a horizon. Meaning I tend to think that something's good if it works out well here and now. And I can't see all of the dynamics, all of the ripples, all of the longterm issues that go with that. And at some point I have to step back and say, "God, I don't like this. This is lousy. This is not what I would choose. But I'm going to have to say I differ in some way that you hold this in your hand and I don't get it, nor do I like it." But it may have some other implication that I'm not seeing or getting here today. And if I don't at some point make that move, I'll get obsessed with, "God, why didn't you?" And then I'll get stuck.

Josiah L: Yeah. I think, for this person, what it all comes down to is sometimes doubt, like you said, can be a sign of faith. And the fact of the matter is, if we think we have God figured out, we're off track because God is infinite, God's eternal, and faith by definition, Hebrews chapter 11 is belief in what's unseen and what we hope for. And so, there's something about God's character that is just beyond us and our humanity and we can't fully wrap our minds around Him. And so sometimes doubt is evidence of faith more so than evidence that would disprove faith.

Kurt B: Yeah. That's well put.

Josiah L: And when we see brokenness in the world, we can know that ultimately our God came to do something about that. And He will.

Kurt B: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. I said something in a previous Ask a Pastor, and I said it on a weekend this fall when we were working our way through John. And that is when, if you're an unbeliever, the closest you'll ever be to heaven are your best moments here on earth. And if you're a believer, the closest you'll ever get to hell are your worst moments here on earth. And I think that's a good, helpful way to think about something, because what it does is it helps you to say, "When things aren't as they should be, I'm actually living in a now and not yet reality. And I have hope that all of the pain and brokenness that I experience now is actually the closest I'll ever be to the hell of eternity."

Josiah L: Yeah. That's a big thought.

Kurt B: And on the flip side, if I'm a nonbeliever, all of my best moments are the closest I'll ever be to heaven, and that they're a taste and a foretaste of all that will be. And the result of that is to help me put into context that I wasn't created just for this world. And although it doesn't help solve the immediacy of the pain of brokenness, it gives me a perspective maybe that helps me to navigate it.

Josiah L: Just two last little takeaways here. This person specifically mentions children and animals. And something that's really cool here at Orchard Hill, we've had a lot of families who have participated in fostering and adoption because of their heart for kids who are in these kinds of tough situations, even volunteering with community organizations. What an awesome way for us to be able to represent the hope that we have in Christ through caring for people. And some people would hear this last thing and say, "Wow, should a church really be doing that?" But we send people actually to serve at animal shelters through our Eleos Ministry.

Kurt B: We do.

Josiah L: And maybe that doesn't sound like a spiritual activity, but what a cool way-

Kurt B: Creation care. It's part of-

Josiah L: What a cool way for us as a church to show people that we care about God's creation and we want to be able to stick up for a value for life in whatever form that may be. And so, maybe it's not necessarily an evangelistic activity to the animals, but it is an evangelistic opportunity for us to communicate-

Kurt B: Care for all of God's creation.

Josiah L: ... our care for creation to the people we interact with when we're out there doing that kind of service project.

Kurt B: Yeah. No, that's good. Well put. Well, thank you. Well, again, thank you for spending part of your day here. Thank you, Josiah. Again, if you have questions, please send them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com. We'll be happy to address them in a coming week.