Ask a Pastor Ep. 76 - Christian Dating and Marriage
Welcome to Ask a Pastor, a podcast from Orchard Hill Church! Have you ever had a question about the Bible, Faith, or Christianity as a whole? Submit your question and one of our pastors will answer on the program. New episodes every Wednesday.
This episode, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, Joel Haldeman, Evan Brem and Allyson Wagner sit down to have a conversation about how Christians should think about dating, marriage, and how to respond to our culture's ideas about these topics.
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Podcast Transcript
Joel Haldeman: Hey welcome to the Ask A Pastor Podcast. I am really excited for this episode. We're jumping into the subject of dating. Before we get into it, we'll each introduce ourselves, give us what you do at Orchard Hill, your name of course, and your relational status and longevity.
Kurt Bjorklund: I'm Kurt. I serve as one of the pastors at Orchard Hill. I have been married to the same woman for 28 years.
Allyson Wagner: Nice.
Evan Brem: I knew I recognized you.
Joel Haldeman: Joel. Strip District campus pastor. Married for... I just literally drew a blank.
Kurt Bjorklund: Wow.
Joel Haldeman: Since 2011. No it wasn't 2011. 2007.
Allyson Wagner: There you go.
Joel Haldeman: So 12 years.
Allyson Wagner: I'm Allyson. I work with the high school student ministry, and I'm single.
Evan Brem: I'm Evan Brem. I work with the middle schoolers, and I've been married for a little over two years.
Joel Haldeman: All right. So we have to ask this question before we jump in. Give us your best winter date idea. Evan.
Evan Brem: Well, I'm a big fan of the winter. I'm a big fan of the snow. But my wife is not a fan of the cold. So it'd definitely be something indoors because you've got to play to your audience. Because you know if it's outside, she doesn't like the cold.
Joel Haldeman: That's good.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's great advice.
Joel Haldeman: That might be worth the whole podcast right there, play to your audience. Evan Brem there it is.
Evan Brem: Does the buzzer mean I'm done? Does that mean I'm good?
Kurt Bjorklund: I don't know.
Evan Brem: Well, I mean, I don't know. I love food, I love eating and I think Pittsburgh has a lot of great restaurants. So somewhere that just has like a good, warm vibe and you can eat food. And it's cold outside, but you're warm inside. I'd say that's a good time.
Allyson Wagner: Nice.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah.
Allyson Wagner: Nice.
Joel Haldeman: You're next.
Allyson Wagner: Yeah, probably something inside. I like food. Maybe some coffee. I can't ice skate. So someone takes me ice skating you all are going to have to help me up.
Kurt Bjorklund: Perfect. That might be playing to the audience. Who knows?
Evan Brem: It might be.
Joel Haldeman: When my wife and I were dating in Chicago, we would often... It was like we were right in the city, so we would often just go to hotel lobbies and just hang out in the lobby. Because we didn't want to hang out on campus, so that was like our favorite winter date, random hotel lobbies.
Allyson Wagner: And it's free.
Joel Haldeman: And we like saw the city. It's free.
Allyson Wagner: Yeah.
Joel Haldeman: If I were doing it today, I would maybe do something like skiing or something like that. I'm just stealing that from Evan though.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. Mine would be fairly easy. My wife loves to ice skate, so the opposite end. So if she can get a chance to ice skate, especially at one of those big outdoor things where you go round and round.
Joel Haldeman: Like PPG?
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah PPG or something like that. That's always a hit with a nice meal afterward, so on. So that'd be easy.
Allyson Wagner: Nice.
Joel Haldeman: Hot chocolate.
Producer Josh: Go around and around.
Kurt Bjorklund: I guess that's what you do in ice skating, right? You can tell what I think of the ice skating. That's right.
Joel Haldeman: Oh, man. So our question specifically is how do you date to the glory of God? I think we need to begin by recognizing that in the history of humanity, the ability to choose your spouse is kind of unique. Not unique but the majority of marriages have been a result of not choosing your spouse. It's been the result of somebody else choosing for you, right? Do I have that right?
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. That's certainly... It certainly has been true at periods. I don't know how much.
Joel Haldeman: But we're in this era where dating is the only way that you get married, at least in our part of the world in this day. Let's just jump into it. What does it mean to date to the glory of God?
Joel Haldeman: Evan.
Evan Brem: That's a great question. Yeah. We're going to have to figure out how we're going to jump in here. I don't know.
Kurt Bjorklund: He's playing to the crowd to the glory of God.
Evan Brem: I think the first thing that comes to my mind is without understanding a biblical description in God's heart for marriage, I don't think that any believers going to date well. So I do think it starts there with looking biblically. What is God's heart? What is God's design for marriage? What is the role of men and women in marriage? And what is the picture of Christ in the church that is created in marriage? And understand the weight of that and the sanctity of that I think just lays a foundation for dating well. I think going in just like being like, "Well, hey. I just want to get to know someone, and I just want to know what I like and don't like. I just want to have..." Or maybe just... Because I feel like those are both good things, but, "I just want to have fun. I just want to date around." I don't think going with those mindsets is lay a foundation to date well. That's where I would start.
Joel Haldeman: So you're making an assumption that dating is for the purpose of marriage. Is that what you're saying?
Evan Brem: I mean, from where I stand, I would say yes. I would say in a Christian circle, I don't see a point in dating if you don't... If you say, "There's no way I'm going to marry this person," I don't see it as being a positive or being the best thing for you in your relationship with the Lord to continue to date that person.
Joel Haldeman: So is it wrong for someone to go on one date if they don't see themselves marrying that person?
Evan Brem: Yeah. I would say no because, and I don't think that contradicts what I just said because the-
Kurt Bjorklund: Even though it clearly does.
Evan Brem: I would say that what I said before is kind of like the trajectory of what you're doing in that relationship. If you see a long term trajectory like, "This is not going to marriage," that is the course of this that the theme of this marriage, I'm not... Not marriage, sorry.
Kurt Bjorklund: You're actually asking two different questions in a sense because I think, Evan, what you're probably talking about is dating relationship. You're saying to be in a dating relationship with somebody where you're dating without seeing a future, you're not sure is a wise choice.
Evan Brem: Yes. Oh, we're talking on going on dates.
Kurt Bjorklund: Joel asking the going on a date, where you don't really know the person yet. To me, that would seem... Yeah, to say I need to see if somebody is marriage material before I'd even go on a date-
Evan Brem: That's a good clarification to make.
Kurt Bjorklund: Whereas you may not know until you've been on a handful of dates, until you've spent some time with the person. I'll just jump in here for a second may not be interested in if you agree with Evan's overall take on that. I think a lot of times in our culture people rule people out too quickly because we look at people on the superficial elements of are they attractive, are they this, are they that. And not that those things are unimportant, but what makes somebody a good spouse in a God-honoring marriage is very different than what we tend to assess as being key.
Kurt Bjorklund: And so when you ask first how do we date to the glory of God, you probably have to ask that question right off is what is a God honoring marriage look like? And I think that's what you're saying. If you hit a point where you say, "This person can't be..." But I think we actually do the opposite, and that is we say, "I won't even go out with somebody who could be that because they aren't hot enough," kind of a thing.
Kurt Bjorklund: Do you guys agree with Evan's take of you shouldn't date somebody that you don't see as being marriage-able?
Joel Haldeman: I think so. I think I'd have a hard time saying... I don't know that I'd be able to call it a sin. But to say, yeah, I think that'd be an unwise thing, especially if you're leading that person on, if they're interested in marriage. Yeah.
Allyson Wagner: I think that's where it's like on a date, you have to be clear with those intentions and everything. But it's also good to take a chance on that date and to see. You're obviously not going to know if that person's going to be your spouse the first date until like giving them a chance and everything. That's what I think.
Joel Haldeman: So, Allyson, as the single person who wants to be married someday.
Allyson Wagner: Yeah.
Joel Haldeman: Okay. Just making sure, okay? What are some qualities that you particularly look for just as you think about marrying somebody one day?
Allyson Wagner: I think an obvious one is that they love the Lord, and they're fully committed to him. A big one for me is they support my passions and just being in ministry. They want to walk alongside that. They don't obviously have to be in ministry, but if they see that as an importance in my life. Yeah, just someone who's humble and kind. Yeah. I would say those are top ones.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah. I think your statement about a person obviously being a Christian is an important one, and not one that is obvious to a lot of people. So can you explain why? Why is it that... It sounds like you're saying that that's an essential thing. That you wouldn't marry somebody who's not a Christian. Why is that?
Allyson Wagner: In scripture it talks about a marriage covenant and being unequally yolked. So I just believe that both of the people in that covenant marriage and relationship should know who Christ is and have that relationship with the Lord.
Joel Haldeman: Evan, what would you say if somebody said that that is narrow-minded to say that a Christian should only marry a Christian?
Evan Brem: Yeah. First, I think what Kurt said earlier about it's easy to jump in too quickly and disqualify people too quickly because of a characteristic. Oh, they're not hot enough or they're not funny enough or something. I think it would be narrow-minded in the sense to say, "I'm going to, before I even get to know this person, judge their heart and make a discernment for myself if they're a Christian or not." Sometimes we're provided with evidence on the outside that may lead us to a certain conclusion, but I think in that... I don't want to go too far there, but say we may make a judgment too quickly.
Evan Brem: But that said, I do not think it's at all narrow-minded to say, "I want to marry someone who is a Christian and only marry someone who is a Christian," because if that is the center of your identity, if that's the core of who you are, if that is what you are striving to... If you're striving to become more like Christ in your daily life and that is what and who is going to define your life, someone who doesn't define their life in that way will do nothing but pull you back from that. So for the sake of someone's relationship with Christ, if you say that is the most important thing in your life, it does only make sense I think to marry someone who is a Christian.
Joel Haldeman: I think what people sometimes... Because I've gotten some pushback on this. And I think what sometimes people don't understand is that to us our faith is the defining characteristic of our life. So to enter into a marriage with somebody who doesn't share that... I mean, heck, I wouldn't marry somebody who had a radically different perspective on finances than me. Like somebody who says, "Let's just rack up all the consumer debt that we can. It doesn't matter. We'll just pass it onto our kids one day." I'd probably walk away from that. And so if my faith is the most important thing about me, I'd be crazy to marry somebody that says, "I don't believe your definition of reality." And I think we'd say the same thing to somebody who's a committed faithful Muslim marrying somebody who's an Atheist, right? I mean, I think the same thing would hold true there, even though we wouldn't use the Bible as a...
Joel Haldeman: I don't know. What's your take on that?
Kurt Bjorklund: I think you've defined that and stated that well. That if that is the most important thing to you... I mean, it is a clear command, Second Corinthians 6:14, "Don't be unequally yolked together with a unbeliever." So there is that. But I think just the wisdom side is also what you're appealing to because for a lot of people saying, "Well, I know it says that but I really like her. I really like him. It'll be okay." It's a wisdom issue as well, and that's what you're driving at. And I think that's right.
Kurt Bjorklund: The only other thing I'd say about that is sometimes it's hard to know where somebody is entirely and where they are today may not be where they end up. But you also want to be careful that you don't take on a project and assume that somebody will be different then they are today. Because generally if something's a problem before marriage, it'll be a bigger problem after. Not less than a problem. But I think the issue there is not judging too quickly, especially on somebody's spiritual life.
Kurt Bjorklund: What I think Christians tend to do is assume that if somebody is spiritually mature, deep, whatever, that their faith has to look like your faith. Meaning they have to express it the way you express it. And what can happen is you can look at somebody else very quickly and say, "Well, they don't study their Bible as much as I do. They don't serve like I do. They don't raise their hands like I do." Whatever it is that you do. And you can miss the depth of somebody's real heart and soul that may express their faith very differently and may be just as deep or deeper than your own faith. And so you have to be really careful with that, with not being too quick to make that assessment that, "Oh, they're not spiritual enough." Okay, maybe they're a Christian, but they're not spiritual enough. You may be surprised sometimes by that.
Joel Haldeman: As somebody who has time in your favor looking back, actually I think you've said this a few times where you feel like you hit the jackpot, looking back at the decisions that you made. How could I have known? There's no way you could've known as a... How old were you when you met Faith?
Kurt Bjorklund: 19, 20.
Joel Haldeman: To make that big of a decision at that age.
Kurt Bjorklund: We were 12. We've been married 28 years. We were 12.
Joel Haldeman: So what would you say were some of the characteristics now that you would say to somebody, "These are the things that you need to look for in a future spouse."
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, one of the reasons I say what I even just said a moment ago is when Faith and I started dating, I did not see the depth of her spiritual life. And so we were kind of on and off a little because I thought, "Well, you need to do it kind of like I do." And her faith has been such a significant part of our lives, my marriage, our kids. And so yeah. I mean, when I look back, the shared faith journey is beyond essential in my estimation in terms of life, especially having gone into "ministry". I don't always love that word vocational ministry probably because every Christian should be in ministry. But that's a whole nother podcast.
Kurt Bjorklund: But being in vocational ministry, there are a lot of things that happen that if you don't have a shared journey in that area, would just make it really, really hard. And parenting all of that.
Kurt Bjorklund: The other things are a lot more mundane. My wife is incredibly hard working, plucky, whatever word you want to use. Plucky probably isn't the best word. But what I mean by that is... That's right. Do that to myself. What I mean is she's so resilient and willing to just go at anything that needs to be done. And that lives really well over time, like looking back. I mean, you can't anticipate what it's like to have four kids and diapers and projects. When you're dating, you just have no concept of what that's like and just to have somebody who just has that kind of an approach has been substantial. She's fun, she's kind.
Kurt Bjorklund: When I got married, and this is what I think I've probably said publicly that you're alluding to. I was 22. So I'm thinking, "She's pretty. She's fun. She's smart. She loves Jesus. What could go wrong?" And I just didn't understand the depth of how much marriage marks you and how much the abiding character of a person impacts your life when you marry them. And at 22, I didn't even understand just some of the dynamics of relational and health, and that's what I mean. Looking back, it's like I could've missed all kinds of stuff that was God's good grace.
Kurt Bjorklund: And so what I've said to my boys who are starting to push into ages of dating and marriage and all of that is let us weigh in on your decision because we've seen more now. Although didn't necessarily happen. But be prayerful, don't just make assumptions quickly. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah. Sure. Having done the premarital quizzes things and comparing results... By the way, how did Evan and Haley do on that?
Kurt Bjorklund: They were compatible.
Joel Haldeman: Nice.
Evan Brem: Good. Good.
Kurt Bjorklund: I officiated Evan and Haley's wedding, which a joyous occasion.
Evan Brem: You did a great job. We were married at the end of the day.
Kurt Bjorklund: And they're still married.
Evan Brem: Yes.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's right. So far so good.
Joel Haldeman: The first section in that is always on communication. People fill out this test. You compare results. And I guess I just never realized how big of a deal that is, the ability to communicate well with each other. That's one of those things where you go through the premarital subjects, and everything that comes after that... The tool that you use to solve those problems is communication, and if you can't communicate well, you're going to have all kinds of problems.
Kurt Bjorklund: But you know what's interesting about this, and I've said this too probably publicly but certainly I say this to couples. When I sit with couples that are getting ready to get married and I ask them, "What's good in your relationship," almost always they'll say, "We can talk. We can communicate. We really can communicate. That's what we love about each other." And almost always when I sit with couples that are headed toward divorce, and I say, "What's wrong?" "I can't talk to her." "I can't talk to him." "She doesn't get me." "He doesn't listen to me."
Kurt Bjorklund: And so somewhere in the dynamic of a relationship, part of what draws people together is they think they can communicate and part of what breaks down is the inability to communicate. And I'm not sure entirely how to event script that in the early years of marriage because that is when you... Because it's usually after the dating and it's early marriage where you actually develop your real patterns of communication. It's the first conflict when you can't leave. It's the first time that you say, "Oh my goodness. You just said that? I can't believe that you would say that to me." Because you still kind of on your good behavior to a degree at least until you're married, and then all of a sudden you say, "Okay. Here it is." And there's a little more to work through.
Joel Haldeman: So what would you guys say just you're speaking to people that are in the throws of dating and trying to find a future spouse. What advice would you give them just about how to go about dating?
Allyson Wagner: I think a huge thing is going into it and recognizing there's no perfect person. I don't think there's the one. I think God gives us that freewill in choosing a spouse. He already knows who we're going to choose at the end of the day. So just recognizing that there's two mutually flawed people in this relationship. There's going to be issues. But like Kurt was saying, communication is key and trying to go forward in that in the healthy manner and also recognizing any relationship, it's not going to be perfect. It may not end in marriage either. So recognizing that you got to take a risk sometimes and opening your heart is also risky and everything. But also just like referring to... I was almost in a relationship end of last year, but something that me and the guy talked about at the beginning was just we recognized this may not work out. And that's okay. And leaving that person better off than you originally found them per se.
Joel Haldeman: That's like the Boy Scout motto.
Evan Brem: Respecting the space.
Joel Haldeman: Oh, go ahead.
Evan Brem: I mean, I think just from my experience in college. I don't think this is prescriptive. But this is just what I experienced. When I was going to college, I was serious about my faith, and I was like, "All right. I'm going to go and there's whole new pool of girls that are going to be there. There's going to be a lot of great Christian girls who are serious about their faith too, and probably going to meet my wife within the first couple months of being there. Why wouldn't I? I'm serious about my faith. I'm going to meet girls who are serious about their faith."
Evan Brem: Hey, I agree. That's a horrible mindset. You can X me on that.
Allyson Wagner: I went to a Christian school, and yeah... That was like this huge thing.
Evan Brem: Yes.
Joel Haldeman: Ring before spring.
Evan Brem: And so that was my mindset. I got into a relationship with the first Christian girl who showed interest in me, and it lasted two months because it just kind of puttered out. And I was like really confused at the end of that because I was like I thought I did everything right. I thought I had all the pieces together and it was going to go right. For a couple years after that kind of floundered and was growing in my faith but struggling to find my identity because I just kind of figured it was going to land there. Just made some bad decisions. And then finally I think by my senior year I was in a point where I said, "God, I came into college expecting to leave and get married shortly after. I am finally realizing that I am totally okay that I graduate single and that I've grown so much closer to you because of that." And lived for most of my senior year like that. Or sorry, that was my junior year because it was the summer after my junior year I met Haley.
Evan Brem: So lived most of my junior year like that and was finally okay with being single. And knew that I was closer to God because of it. And then after reaching that mindset and being able to realize that, then I met Haley. I said at the beginning not prescriptive because I don't believe that everyone who can get themselves to a point where they say, "God, I'm okay with being single," then God will deliver a spouse. But that was my experience, and Haley actually had one similar to it.
Kurt Bjorklund: It's a good point that if you're not okay being alone, you're not going to be okay with somebody else because you'll upload too much into that relationship. And so although it's not a, like you said a, "Oh, now that I'm okay, I'll get," but it's certainly a health thing where if you're not healthy, if you say, "I have to have somebody right now." That doesn't mean you don't want them or want somebody or articulate that. I think it's unhealthy to not articulate that if it's true. So I think that's wise.
Allyson Wagner: I think it's cool that you and Haley both had those moments of surrounding that to the Lord. But I also think in Christian culture it's a lie that when it's like, "Oh, once I get closer to the Lord, then I'll get a spouse," in that situation. I'm not saying that like... It's like both ways.
Evan Brem: No, I agree with you. That's why I made sure I made the caveat this is not prescriptive because then we go in expecting God, "God, now you better deliver. I'm good with you. Where's my-"
Allyson Wagner: And it's not...
Evan Brem: ... "wife?"
Allyson Wagner: We can't expect that.
Kurt Bjorklund: Something else I would add about dating, and I think sometimes we put too much pressure on dating. And what would be healthier is friendship cultivation, and then let it grow because the best marriages are friendships at the end of the day that have romance involved rather than romances that try to augment friendship. And I think too often people try to start relationships with romance rather than friendship. And if you can build friendship and add romance, you're building something that has a much better chance to be sustained long term than the other way around.
Joel Haldeman: Coming back to something that Allyson said, how important do you think compatibility is as somebody's trying to select a future spouse?
Kurt Bjorklund: And by compatibility, you mean?
Joel Haldeman: Well, Allyson alluded to there might be the one out there for you. So how important is it for people to find somebody that they're going to be compatible with, that they're going to... When they take the premarital test, it says, "We agree about all these things." Versus arranged marriages have succeeded for since the beginning of this world. Now that doesn't mean that they were happy or anything. So how important should somebody... How much should somebody value?
Kurt Bjorklund: What do you guys think?
Allyson Wagner: I think you obviously don't complete someone, but in order for like a healthy relationship, those two people compliment each other. So I think differences in personality, sometimes those work out and ultimately it's up to you. It's like am I compatible with this person or does it feel like this brick wall between us? But I do think it's okay to be completely different if you guys work out. I don't know.
Joel Haldeman: It's funny in some relationships, people are opposites and their oppositeness is beneficial to that relationship. In my relationship with my wife, we are not opposites. We are so similar in so many stinking ways. On the Enneagram test, we're very similar in our personalities. We're not the same. And it's that similarness that helps us have a good relationship. But on the other hand, it gives us lopsided parenting. So it's like both of those things can work out and be true that you having different personalities complimenting each other or very similar personalities that sort of support each other.
Kurt Bjorklund: Evan, thoughts.
Evan Brem: Yeah. So I don't know where that leaves us then because my wife and I would say have some similarities but also have some big differences. And I've gotten to see the ways that she's different from me challenge me and push me and grow me. I am so thankful for them. I think when we think of compatibility, sometimes we either think of, "Okay, we got to be opposite because we got to check every box across the board so we can together make a complete piece," or, "I have to find the carbon copy of myself because we're going to be best friends and do all the same stuff together." And I think both of those are probably an unreasonable expectation. And I do think that the ultimate determination for the compatibility is kind of what we went back to at the start and that's are both of you grounded in Jesus Christ. Without that, you're not going to be compatible at all. I mean, I don't think I totally answered the question, but I think God can bless and God can bring together any kind of person that he wants if both of them are grounded in him.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. Probably well stated to say, you've heard opposites attract. But people who are alike live better together. That's probably true, and you probably want more compatibility rather than less on more things. And there's a lot of things besides faith, certainly faith is high on that list, if not the highest. But Joel mentioned earlier just financial patterns, spending, preferences for how you do vacation. What do you do with a night that you don't have an obligation? Do you want to go out with friends? Do you want to be home alone? Do you like to grow vegetables in your back garden, or do you like to go to the store? Those are goofy but they really play into do you do life together, do you not.
Kurt Bjorklund: Certainly there will be differences in any two people at some point that are substantial. And those you need to celebrate, but you need to have enough compatibility that you're not constantly at odds about how you want to do life. And so that's what I would say is that you want to find those, and truth is, even though people say opposites attract, I love that she's like that or he's like that. And there's some of that. But you also want somebody who sees the world the way you do.
Kurt Bjorklund: When I talked earlier about friendship, I think it was maybe one of the CS Lewis books, The Four Loves, where he talks about friendship. And what he talks about is that the essence of friendship is seeing the world and saying, "Me too," or, "The same way." And what makes friendship is those me too moments. That didn't come out right in today's culture, but the, "I see it the way you see it," moments because that's when you feel known and you feel a connection. And that's true just in friendship in general. If I'm with somebody and we say, "Oh, I watched the Steeler game, and this is how I saw it." "Oh, I saw it the same way." You feel a little bond. You go to a brewery and you say, "Hey, I love that beer. I didn't like that one and here's why." Okay. You feel a connection. The more of those you have with somebody that you're trying to build a life with, the stronger your life will be.
Kurt Bjorklund: But at the same time, there will be things where you say, "I hate what you like, and you like what I hate." And now we have to find ways to celebrate those differences rather than... But if you don't have the underlying compatibility, then those things become huge irritants.
Joel Haldeman: Let's go in a different direction. What is the role of sexual desire and attraction in a dating relationship before being married? Evan.
Evan Brem: That's a good question.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's a good question for someone else.
Evan Brem: Yeah. As someone who has a mess of this in my own life, that I think a lot of times I just look to when Paul says if you burn with passion, it's better for you to marry. And I'm just thankful. I'm just thankful to God that I married young, and he set me up for that. And that he has used Haley to be a huge catalyst of growth for me in that area. Just in my earlier life, I just made a mess of that. So I don't think I'm a good example of that or a good example of an earlier dating relationships, how to handle that appropriately. So that's a very good question. But I think that's my experience at least.
Allyson Wagner: Can you repeat the question?
Joel Haldeman: What is the role of sexual desire and attraction in dating, including how do you protect that while you're dating?
Allyson Wagner: Yeah. I think like attraction's important in the dating relationship. Like we talked about earlier at the beginning of this, it's not the ultimate number one thing. And I believe that once a person's married, the Lord wants us to save the intimacy until that marriage covenant. So I also think that attraction will also increase in the marriage. But I think in the dating relationship, I think there's so much pressure to have sex before marriage, and that's what most people think. Song of Solomon talks about don't awaken love until it's ready, which he's talking about once you're married, don't awaken that. So ultimately setting up those guardrails and those boundaries for yourself and not saying to the other person, "How far can we go?" That goes back to how to date to display the Lord. Is this a God-honoring relationship? And intimacy is for the marriage.
Joel Haldeman: You made I think a really good point earlier just about saying that when you started a relationship, you said we want to make sure that we conduct ourselves in a way that we're going to be better if we split up. We're going to be better people. We're going to love Jesus more. I think that's a brilliant way of going into a relationship.
Allyson Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. It helps at the start, and it kind of loses that pressure in dating when you know... I can see that person as a brother in Christ and be like, "I hope you end up better even if this doesn't work out." Because that's for the Lord's glory as well.
Kurt Bjorklund: Where do you see attraction and sexual desire in dating before marriage?
Joel Haldeman: I think attraction in some sense needs to be there. I think I listen to a different podcast that asked the question, "If I'm not sexually attracted to the person that I'm dating, should I marry them?" And I thought the person answered that really well and said... Actually, it was a man answering it, and he threw it to his wife earlier in the day. And she said, "So what's the problem?" And just basically made the point that that's like a normal experience for a lot of women that there's a desire, there's an attraction, but there might not be this strong sexual desire. So I think that's an important point to make.
Joel Haldeman: But I think using the word guardrails is a good one. For my wife and I, we sat down and talked about what our guardrails were going to be in our relationship. I think one of our challenges today is we date and we are engaged for so long because wedding planning is such a huge thing that it's just hard to... Relationships are meant to progress physically, and maintaining boundaries is just hard over a long period of time. So I think just having boundaries and ours involved not being alone in each other's homes. Our parent's homes. I don't even remember what some of the other ones were. We actually had a limit at one point at how many times we could kiss on a date.
Kurt Bjorklund: Did you keep a counter?
Joel Haldeman: Yeah, we had one of those library things.
Kurt Bjorklund: Did you do it or did Amy? Which one?
Joel Haldeman: That's a good question. Interesting. What do you think?
Kurt Bjorklund: Certainly attraction and sexual desire play a role in marriage and should. I think the scripture's clear that even First Corinthians about not setting aside your sexual intimacy unless it's agreed upon for a time of prayer and fasting. So your marriage is designed to celebrate that and to embrace that, enjoy that. So if you enter it without that, you're asking for a lack of intimacy.
Kurt Bjorklund: So at the same time, again, I think we as a culture, and I already made this point. But over prioritize the physical attractiveness and that's why again I say friendship is so big because once you become good friends, attraction in some ways grows, which is also another guardrail once you're married about being careful of friends in terms of that. But when you're single, cultivating friendships that are health and then letting it grow toward that when the attraction kicks in is a beautiful way to pursue relationship.
Evan Brem: I think just what you guys said kind of made me think of... I feel like I can jump in with a negative example of when I was dating Haley, I found it important for her to know my past and know all of it. I found that in our marriage, in our early marriage, I definitely had to recover from that because it produced trust issues, reasonable trust issues. And how you said if we enter into that intimacy that God has designed for marriage and marriage alone for that, then we're asking for issues. I'm not saying Haley and I have huge sexual problems, but early on in our marriage I definitely felt the weight of that. And I definitely saw the ground almost that I needed to make up and the hole I dug for myself in not honoring God with that prior to my marriage. So I don't know if that's helpful.
Joel Haldeman: I think that we have this Hollywood perspective on sex that it's always crazy all the time, and there's clothes flying everywhere. I know that in our marriage, the sexual intimacy and enjoyment of each other is something that has just grown over the years. And one of those things when you look back, it's like that was super weird when we were first married. And so I think that's just another piece of this. We need to have a long term perspective on sexuality and how we think about that in dating.
Kurt Bjorklund: I read something when I was first married, and it talked about... The title of the chapter in this book was called Sex: A 20 Year Warm Up. And at the time, I was like, "20 years, what are you talking about?" Now I've been married 20 years, and I get what that's saying. And that is it's the tenderness over time and the if you pursue it well together, it gets better. Which again, goes counter to our culture's way of thinking, which is you're young, that's when it's best. And it actually grows as your relationship grows, if the relationship grows healthy.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah. All right. I got some rapid fire questions. These are all on subject. So online dating, good idea or bad idea?
Allyson Wagner: I've known people that met their spouse through it. I don't know if I would ever do it. It just freaks me out.
Joel Haldeman: Mark her words.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's right. We have the podcast.
Allyson Wagner: I don't know.
Joel Haldeman: What do you think, Evan?
Evan Brem: Yeah. I don't know. I don't want to knock it, and I also know people who have met like that. I think if it's something that starts online and then stays online, and you're like, "I've only talked to this person online. I know them really well. Now we're in a very serious relationship," that maybe a mistake without face-to-face contact. But I don't think it's fair to just straight up knock it.
Kurt Bjorklund: I think it's a good idea. Sometimes it's hard to meet people in different ways. If modern technology allows you to match some people and meet people who might be possible people, then I think that's helpful. Obviously, like anything, you have to be careful of it. There's a lot of people playing games and all of that. So you have to be wise. But I don't know why you wouldn't use the potential broadening of the people that might be of interest.
Joel Haldeman: When I was first came to Orchard Hill, I was maybe 25 in a life group. And probably half the people that were in that life group got married through online dating. It's a real struggle to... Well, here's the next question. How about this? Where does somebody in their 20s meet other singles?
Allyson Wagner: Church.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's a great answer.
Allyson Wagner: That's hard though because most of them are probably out of college, and they're just working their full time jobs. But I think church is like a number one place. Get involved in serving or a small group, life group, whatever. I think that's a good way to meet people.
Allyson Wagner: Or mutual friends.
Evan Brem: Mutual friends, that's how I met Haley was through a mutual friend bugging us for three years.
Joel Haldeman: You're stubborn, aren't you?
Evan Brem: Well, I didn't know about it for the first two. She bugged Haley for a while, and Haley was like, "What are you talking about? We don't know each other." And then she dumped on me, and then we met at a wedding. We're like, "All right. Cool. Let's do this."
Kurt Bjorklund: I was at that wedding. I remember that.
Evan Brem: Yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: I remember. It's like, "What's going on? Who's that guy that's hanging out with Haley?"
Evan Brem: Why is he so sweaty?
Joel Haldeman: All right. Anything you want to...
Kurt Bjorklund: I've sailed on that.
Joel Haldeman: All right. Last question, give us your best first date idea. Not your first date, you're giving advice to somebody who's going on a first date. Give us an idea.
Allyson Wagner: Don't go to a movie.
Joel Haldeman: Y'all heard that?
Allyson Wagner: I've done that before. You just sit there and it's awkward. I think just sitting down face-to-face. I've gone to coffee shops, and I feel like you can just get to know a person in that conversation. The less pressure and just like make it chill.
Joel Haldeman: Evan.
Evan Brem: That's a good idea.
Joel Haldeman: Watch a movie?
Evan Brem: No, definitely not going to see a movie. Real quick, funny story from my first date. If people have seen the movie Hitch, Will Smith has an allergic reaction. His face gets all swelled up. He has to go sip Benadryl. Similar situation on mine and Haley's first date actually. I got stung by a wasp, and my armpit started to swell up. And we had to go get Benadryl. I got really sleepy. So we went and got coffee, roller-coaster date, but it worked.
Kurt Bjorklund: For who?
Evan Brem: Yeah. I would say I think it's just like Allyson said, it's good to take the pressure off. I think trying to go out to a really romantic dinner is probably really intimidating for both of you and sets unreasonable expectations of, "We got to click." Just Pittsburgh has a lot of awesome parks and just places to be outside in public. Just walking together, getting to know someone. Buying someone coffee or just a lot of cool ice cream shops, milkshake factories, stuff like that. Just where you can go talk, low pressure.
Kurt Bjorklund: I think you guys are right. I think simple. If it can be off of the traditional grid without creating a feeling of pressure. And what I mean is traditional grid is you go to this place, that place, same kind of places. If you can do something that's a little creative, that's great. But not so much so that it's like, "Whoa. I just met you," kind of a thing. But if you know the person, back to my friendship theme, you've already become a friend. Then you're showing something by asking somebody to go on a "date". So then I would put some creativity into it and try to make it memorable and special and create a little bit of a... Without it being too much pressure. But if you have a little bit of a friendship, you win.
Joel Haldeman: Amy and I had a great date going rollerskating recently, and it was so fun. We were surrounded by sixth graders. We're just like, yeah, 30 and rollerskating together.
Evan Brem: That's awesome.
Joel Haldeman: Just doing something active that's out of the box. Round and round.
Producer Josh: Rollerskating you go round and round.
Joel Haldeman: Wow. We just went full circle. See what I did there?
Evan Brem: Nice.
Allyson Wagner: There you go.
Kurt Bjorklund: Impressive.
Evan Brem: That was good.
Joel Haldeman: Well, thanks for checking out the Ask A Pastor Podcast. If you have any other questions about dating, ebrem@orchardhillchurch.com is who you should email. I'm not going to put your email out there at least.
Allyson Wagner: Okay.
Producer Josh: Why not? She's the only single one.
Joel Haldeman: That's the point.
Kurt Bjorklund: But she does work at Orchard Hill Church.
Joel Haldeman: You can figure it out.
Kurt Bjorklund: Attend, you never know.
Joel Haldeman: Send questions our way. We'd love to check them out in future podcasts, askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com. Thanks guys.
Evan Brem: Thank you.
Allyson Wagner: Thank you.
