Walking in Worship Ep. 1 - How to Worship a King: Chapter 1 (Part 1)
Welcome to Walking in Worship, a podcast from Orchard Hill Music, where our goal is to journey towards a deeper understanding of what christian worship really is.
This episode, Dan Shields, Chris Jamison and David Bowens sit down to have a conversation about chapter 1 of Zach Neese's book, "How to Worship a King". Follow the link below to purchase Zach's book and follow along with our discussion.
Link to buy the book - https://amzn.to/2tVxF6P
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Podcast Transcript
Dan Shields: Hello everyone, welcome to Walking in Worship. My name is Dan Shields, I'm a Worship Pastor here, at Orchard Hill Church.
Chris Jamison: My name is Chris Jamison, I'm a Worship Leader here, at Orchard Hill Church, as well.
David Bowens: My name is David Bowens, and I'm also a Worship Leader here, at Orchard Hill Church.
Dan Shields: This Walking in Worship podcast is designed just to help all of us grow in our faith, and understanding of what worship really is.
Dan Shields: What we've been doing for the last year or so, has been going through some different books about worship, with ideas about worship. We basically just discuss the worship, we'll quote off of the page of the book, and start to talk about those things. Our desire, really, is to grow in worship. We feel like worship is the ultimate end expression of our love for God. What we're really trying to do is just grow in who we are, our understanding of God, our deepening worship, the reality of what worship really is, and who God really is, and our response to him.
Dan Shields: We've been growing through a book, recently we started into a new book. It's by Zack Neese, he's one of the Worship Pastors at Gateway Church, that's Robert Morris' church. It's called How to Worship a King, it's been a really engaging book so far. We're going to start from the beginning, we're actually going to spend most of our time chapter one, for this particular podcast. We're new doing this, but if you're new listening to it, our hope is that you'll grow in what your worship is, and your walk in worship.
Dan Shields: We're going to start, before we jump into chapter one, I'd like to start on the ... There's a quote that I really liked, in the introduction. This was on page XX, it uses Roman numerals instead of real numerals. Right about halfway through, he's talking about the idea of Christianity started as a religion of the people, and it was really just believers, a religion of the believers. But, around 300 AD, things started to formalize, and there started to be separation between the priesthood and the people.
Dan Shields: Everything changed at that point. It became, again, institutionalized, it became more of a religion than just a relationship with Christ. This is one of the outcomes of it that he says, and this is about the middle of page XX. He says, "We see this in churches worldwide. The people of God have been stripped of the benefits of being the people of God. They simply sit in pews, and observe as platform ministers divide the word for them, pray for them, worship for them, and relate to God on their behalf. The only thing left for the congregation to do is applaud. We have created a culture of worship consumerism, and the people whom God called to minister be ministers themselves, become spectators in a world they were created to conquer."
Dan Shields: I love that thought. When I grow up in church, I grew up in a Catholic church. For whatever reasons, I really, deeply had that experience, that was my experience. You just sat, and you listened to the priest. For me, as a younger kid, I didn't even really understand much of what the priest was saying. They sing songs that I was totally disengaged with. Basically, it was a total spectator sport, I just sat there. I'd get scolded from my parents from being too noisy, or playing with my cars, or whatever. I was 17 at the time.
Dan Shields: As a little kid, it was very difficult to even just pay attention. I noticed, also, not just from me, but from almost everybody around me, people seemed to know the motions. They knew when to sit, stand, kneel, cross themselves, that sort of things, they knew the prayers. But, there wasn't a lot of engagement beyond that. I never can remember anybody that I saw passionately worshiping, passionately engaged, nodding their head in agreement to what the priest was saying. It really was the us and them, and it was ultimately those on stage, who in some ways, it was almost like performing for us.
Dan Shields: I think a lot of our folks in this church come from traditional backgrounds that are similar to that. So, when I came out my church, and the first church that I went to is Amplified Church now, but formally was called Pittsburgh East Full Gospel, and I remember looking around and seeing people who were engaged in worship. It was a shock to me, people who were actually passionately engaged. You don't know if it's emotionalism or if it's real, but it looked real to me, and it looked passionate, and it was something I'd never seen before. It was a little bit of a shock.
Dan Shields: As you sit and observe our congregation, what sort of things do you see in our congregation? Do you see passion and engagement, do you see the distance and performance thing? How do you think our interaction on stage affects that?
Chris Jamison: When I first came to the church, you talked about seeing ... Shocked isn't the right word, but seeing people with their hands raised, that's not where ... I came from a background of the same as you, Dan. You sit in a pew, and you just go through the different sorts of tradition sorts of things.
Chris Jamison: When I came here and saw people with their hands raised, I was like, wow, this is really weird. What are they doing? Then, the more that I began to understand what they were doing, and why they were doing it ... Someone had told me about the idea of, when you go to a game, or you go to a concert, and people have their hands raised. You're dancing, you're clapping, you're singing along to the music, you're having a good time. We have a very easy time doing things like that, but when it comes to church, why do we not have that same energy, and love, and fun, and excitement about what we're doing?
Chris Jamison: I mean, we're worshiping the God that created each of us, individually, uniquely. We're not at a Bruno Mars concert, where we have no problem putting our hands in the air, and dancing to Bruno Mars songs. We should have that much energy when we come and worship God, I think. When someone said that to me, that was eye opening. Like, yeah you're right, I don't know why. Why are we so much more reserved when we come to church? Shouldn't this be a place of celebration for what's been done for us, and for what God has done for us, through his son?
Dan Shields: It's funny, too. You think, just experientially, this has nothing to do with things of the heart, or God's pleasure with our worship, or anything like that. If you go to a concert, and everybody just sits down ... I remember, years ago, I went to a concert, it was a James Taylor thing, I can't even remember who it was. Everybody sat through the whole concert, and I remember the concert felt flat.
Dan Shields: You think like, if you could go to a Pittsburgh Steelers game, and whatever, our third string quarterback throws a long bomb, and gets a touchdown, if everybody just sat there and did a golf clap, it would feel like a totally dead game. But, when people are standing, and cheering, and yelling, and high fiving each other, the experience is great for us, as well. Something happens to us, as humans, that really opens us up in a way that we wouldn't be opened otherwise, and we have a much better experience.
David Bowens: I've seen a little bit of all the things you described, Dan. As it relates to our people, you get the ones who have the traditional, I'm just supposed to sit and watch. Then, you have a few of those who are passionate, and [inaudible 00:07:46] and responding. Then, you have those who are in the middle, just in different levels throughout the middle.
David Bowens: Like you said, we don't know the heart, all we know is what we see. So, the hope is, and I had to learn this over time ... I think, when I initially came, the world I came to, prior to coming here, people were very emotionally, and physically expressive when they were present in the worship, from my side of things, from what I could see. However, when I came here, I was like ... I can remember the first weekend I sang, I was like, I don't think these people like me much. I just knew, I don't know if I got this one.
Dan Shields: To your surprise, they actually loved you.
David Bowens: To my surprise, I walked out and ran into a lady on the stairs, and she was incredibly encouraging. She said some wonderful, and kind, and very affirming things to me, as related to her worship experience, which I could not see because I was just assessing the outside expression. So, it meant a lot to me.
David Bowens: Then, when service was over, it was overwhelming how the people felt about it. At the same time, I still believe that God wants us to know that we can express all of ourselves. I think we hide a part of ourselves when we do that. To Chris' point, when you go to games, when you go to rock concerts, when you go to any popular music concert, you're singing, yelling, jumping, dancing, waving hands, with no inhibition, and no thought of it. Yet, when we come before God, we feel like we have to keep that part of ourselves to ourselves, and we have to present this perfect looking thing. I think we don't understand that God made us to enjoy the gift of music, like we do when we don't feel inhibited. Why keep those things from Him?
David Bowens: Not to say that everybody's going to do everything the same, but to keep those expressive parts of you away from Him, in my mind, doesn't make sense. I understand it, because through your traditional religious experiences, it can train you to be a way, and it takes a while to break out of that. Hopefully, through understanding and growth in your relationship with Christ, that does help.
Chris Jamison: I think, to the point you had said when you started this, as far as some people it was a lot more emotionalism.
David Bowens: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Jamison: Others, it was a true representation of what their worship was to God, and what that looked like for them. I think that is a tough thing, that tight rope that you walk between, am I doing this because everyone else in the room is doing it? Am I doing it because it's a true act of worship, on my part?
Chris Jamison: It's not to say that the person sitting there, with their hands to their side, didn't have as powerful of a worship experience as a person with their hands in the air, however, I think it comes down to, when you look at yourself ... This was one of the things that I recognized quickly, and still tend to wrestle with, even now as a Worship Leader, is when you're in the congregation, I think it's your motives behind the way you're worshiping. Are you worshiping with your hands down because you are concerned about what other are going to think of you, whenever you put your hands up? Because that would probably be a red flag. Are you trying to please those around you, or are you trying to please the Lord?
Chris Jamison: Not to say that ... Again, it's tough, because not to say the person with their hands down isn't pleasing the Lord. I mean, that's not the case. I do think you have to ask yourself the question, why am I worshiping the way that I am? Is it because of others, or is it because of my admiration and love for God? Is this how I display that worship, or am I holding back because of my fear of what other people will think?
David Bowens: I think we have to encourage people to go beyond comfort zones. The reason why I say this is because it's so easy to be comfortable, and it speaks to ... I think it parallels our relationship with Christ, in a lot of ways. A lot of us, we find a routine and we stick to it, and we're fine with it, and at no point do we try to push past that routine when it comes to things. Maybe at work, we're pushing to be better. For some, maybe with their families, they're growing and working to be better. But sometimes, in their relationship with Christ it's like, I have my routine, I get up, I do this.
David Bowens: I'm not saying routines are bad, but at the same time, we're called to grow. One thing I always know is that if not going after God, if I'm not growing, then I'm falling. There's no place where you just stop, and you pause, and you're sitting in this one spot. In my mind, I'm always like, if I'm growing closer to the Lord, not outward physical expression, but my expression of worship should be more meaningful, in some very real, and tangible way.
David Bowens: I always talk to people, it speaks to me of faith, and what do you actually believe, and how do you actually feel, because those are things that you actually respond to. Not anything you say, but what you really believe, and what you really feel are the things you actually respond to. So, if you take a moment and begin to allow yourself to go beyond. I'm not going to allow my comfort ... I think that's what a lot of people do, they respond to the space, and what the space allows them to be comfortable doing. Concerts makes you comfortable jumping, screaming, dancing. Games ...
Chris Jamison: Because everyone else is jumping and screaming.
David Bowens: Exactly.
Dan Shields: Right, right.
David Bowens: Exactly. That's what the room is saying, this is okay. Not allowing the room to dictate how you respond, and your relationship should be the main dictator. That, sometimes, takes an intentional battle. Because, even when I sit in the seats, I can have the desire to just ... I make it intentional. God, I'm going to hear the words, and engage in worship the way I know that I would, if I felt totally free. No matter whose here, no matter ... You know what I mean? And allow those words to speak, and to connect with my spirit, and me to sing them out with actual meaning.
David Bowens: I'm always trying to, and attempting people to step beyond what they feel is comfortable, because God deserves it, more than anything else.
Dan Shields: It's funny. David, you'd said a couple things that stand out to me. One was talking about the posture of the heart, as opposed to the posture of the physical body. We don't know people's hearts, we can't see into their hearts, we can't see what real worship is.
Dan Shields: I remember ... I had shared this with you guys before. There was a guy that used to sit down, almost directly in front of me, every service. I would see this guy consistently, hands down at his side, just staring. He almost looked either disengaged, or dissatisfied with what was going on, and a lot of times he'd look at his wristwatch. He was just open eyed, looking around, completely disengaged.
Dan Shields: Finally, one time after the service ... I knew this gentleman pretty well. I said to him, I said, "I see you physically are just not engaged, you don't seem to enjoy the worship at all. It's something that obviously is not touching you." I just asked him the question, "What could we do differently that would engage you more deeply?" He got this look of shock on his face, and he was actually a pretty emotional type of guy. He got this look of shock on his face, and he said, "I can't tell you how important worship is to me." He said, "It takes me through the entire week." He said, "This is so powerful, and so life changing for me, I so need this." He said, "I just am soaking in these words, and I'm just really engaging the heart with God, through these words, very deeply."
David Bowens: Yeah.
Dan Shields: His expression looked completely lifeless.
David Bowens: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dan Shields: It was a reminder to me that we don't always know people's hearts.
David Bowens: Definitely.
Dan Shields: Just because somebody has their hands at their side, they could be deeply worshiping.
Dan Shields: In the same way, God did wire and create us in a certain way. You know, we were talking about the concert that I went to, or a football game, how you, yourself, feel dead if you're not somehow physically engaging in this thing, part of that physical engagement. I don't think God's impressed with our hands in the air, I think God's impressed with our hearts being deeply engaged. But, he wired us in such a way that, if you love your wife, you give her a kiss, you don't just tell her words, but you engage in physical responses. That's actually something that's pleasurable for us, as well. I think that physical part of the engagement of worship is something that God's designed for us to be able to fully engage him.
Chris Jamison: I've had to catch myself, too, when I'm leading and looking at the congregation, and see some people with their hands in the air, and others hands by their sides. I tend to use that, sometimes, as an evaluation of how good or bad I'm doing on stage.
Dan Shields: Right.
Chris Jamison: Strictly then, it's all performance.
David Bowens: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dan Shields: Yeah.
Chris Jamison: It's like, this isn't what this is about. I've become too consumed with worrying about the level of participation in the room, where that's now a gauge for me to know, oh yeah, you're killing it.
Dan Shields: Right?
Chris Jamison: Oh, letting it slip, letting it slip. Oh, there we go.
David Bowens: Well, then you are not the only one. Myself included, I'm in that boat.
Chris Jamison: That's tough, and that's not ... That's not worship, that's your performing for approval, or disapproval. You're always weighing, am I performing, am I worshiping, what does that look like?
David Bowens: That's the constant battle.
Chris Jamison: Oh, yeah.
David Bowens: In my mind, as a worship leader. We're up in front of people, and we see them. Let's just be honest.
Chris Jamison: Right.
David Bowens: We see them, and it affects us.
Chris Jamison: Yes.
Dan Shields: Yeah.
David Bowens: It just does. No matter how well we think we're doing, no matter how well things may sound, when we see these people, their response to it affects us.
Chris Jamison: Yeah.
David Bowens: It's just being honest.
David Bowens: Our battle is, now, do we allow the effect they're having on us, to overtake our worship, and what God has called us to do, in attempting to help be the lead worshipers in the room? Or, do we continue to press in?
David Bowens: Every week, every week, it's still a battle. It has not gone away, it's a battle that I am, literally, in my mind, talking to myself, while I'm singing. David, just be present in the worship. I have to tell myself that, I have to pray every time I come up on stage. The days that I forget to pray it, I'm the most not present. It's a constant reminder that if I am not present in the worship, how can I lead people in worship? My mind is calculating, oh, they're not responding. Oh, this person's not singing, oh, they don't like this, or I'm not doing this right. It becomes a me assessment.
Dan Shields: Yeah.
David Bowens: And not actual worship. Worship is the best thing that a Worship Leader, or a Lead Worshiper, however you want to say it, can do, is actually worship. That's the most effective thing we can do. Then, they see actual worship, and however it looks from the different ones of us.
Dan Shields: Yeah. I like how you say Lead Worshipers, because we're really to all be worshipers in the room. But, we're just the ones leading the way.
Dan Shields: I think, in World War II, on Normandy Beach, they had a lot of Lieutenants, First Lieutenants, that were the leaders of these platoons. Basically, their primary job was not tactics, and things like that, their primary job was to charge and lead the way, that's what they were trained to do. They were the guys who ran into the gunfire, and hopefully those people followed behind them.
Dan Shields: That's kind of what we're called to do, we're called to lead the charge, into the presence of God. If we're not leading into the presence of God, where are we leading?
David Bowens: Right to ourselves.
Dan Shields: We're leading to performance, and to ourselves. Yeah, that's a real breakdown. I think people sense that, too, from the stage, whether we're performing. That's a battle for all of us, whether we're performing or really engaging in worship.
Chris Jamison: Hey, it's Chris. Thanks so much for listening to episode one of Walking in Worship. Join us next time, as we continue our conversation on chapter one of Zachary Neese's book, How to Worship a King, and continue to walk with us towards a deeper understanding of what worship truly is.
