Ask a Pastor Ep. 106 - White Questions for a Black Man
Welcome to Ask a Pastor, a podcast from Orchard Hill Church! Have you ever had a question about the Bible, Faith, or Christianity as a whole? Submit your question and one of our pastors will answer on the program. New episodes every Wednesday.
This episode, Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, sits down with John Fuller to have a conversation about the history of race relations in America from someone who grew up in the Jim Crow south, what has changed for the better, things that the country and individuals still need to work on, and more!
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Podcast Transcript
Kurt Bjorklund: Hey, welcome to Ask a Pastor today. I am joined by John Fuller. John is a longtime part of Orchard Hill Church, former executive with the Heinz corporation, is an elder at our church here at Orchard Hill. And so welcome, John, glad to have you here today.
John Fuller: Thank you, glad to be here.
Kurt Bjorklund: And for those of you listening on the radio, John is a black man. And the reason I tell that is because we're going to talk about race today. And I know that race is probably a topic some people are tired of talking about, and some people want to keep talking about. But John has a lot of perspective that I know will be helpful in this cultural moment for us. So John, first tell us a little bit about your own journey where you grew up and when you grew up because I think that's actually helpful, and your perspective on that, how you ended up in Pittsburgh and how you experienced that move.
John Fuller: Okay. I grew up in North Carolina. Henderson area particularly. It was in the Jim Crow south segregation. In other words, in the 1950s and 1960s, we went to separate schools and churches, although we lived not segregated in the community, we went to different facilities because of Jim Crow. From high school, I went to North Carolina Central University in Durham, North Carolina, where, during the early 60s we encountered the student demonstrations led by Martin Luther King and others. I actually participated in student demonstrations so that we could actually eliminate the segregation in public facilities, buses, bus stations, schools, lunch counters, etc. In particular, in Durham, North Carolina, we were instrumental in desegregating the lunch counters. I remember in particularly, Roses 5 and 10 cent stores, blacks could shop there but could not sit down at the lunch counters and eat. And of course, we worked diligently to change that. And as it so happens, we were able to accomplish that in Michigan, not only in Durham, but in other hometowns in North Carolina. So, from college, I was drafted into the U.S. Army. I served at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, AIT at Fort Gordon, and then from there, I went to Japan, where I did foreign duty there during the Vietnam War. And then from Japan back to the United States at Fort Ord Hospital, and then out of service. From there I was recruited to work for the H.J. Heinz Company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 1970, I came to work never thinking that I would spend a whole career there, but I did. I retired from the H.J. Heinz company. I lived in Wexford most of the time in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I live in Penn Hills part of the time and of course, I learned about Orchard Hill Church when I moved to Wexford. So that's sort of the lay of the land.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, you have a much longer perspective than most people having lived in the south in the era when segregation was still legal and practiced and helped even march and change that. You then moved to the north, if you call Pittsburgh north, the mid-north, I guess you could call it. And in the 70s, when there was still certainly a lot of racial challenges and having lived through 2020 and everything that is happening today, where have you seen progress in terms of race in the United States and where do you look and say there's a lack of progress?
John Fuller: Certainly, there from a perspective of Jim Crowism in the south, there are no more separate toilet facilities, bus station facilities, churches, and schools. They are integrated. So, from that perspective, it's very different. But in that context, there's still the missing piece of total equality in this country for African Americans. You could look at various aspects like where people live in the community, real estate, or you could look at jobs in some cases, opportunity to pursue those jobs in certain areas. So, in that respect, they are different, but also the same, have made that much difference as we look at it today. As I look back at the demonstrations of the 1960s, one thing was that the church was a part of that, at that time, Martin Luther King, Catholics, and many others. Today, you don't see that as much. I haven't seen the church as a vocal part of the demonstrations that's been occurring in 2019-2020. As an African American, I think certainly, there's opportunities that exist now, that certainly did not exist for us before, but we have to do a lot on our own to pursue those opportunities. While if they are there, and we don't take advantage of them, it really doesn't help us to move progress forward for our race.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So, as a teenager, in the 50s, in the south, Jim Crow, explain to us how that impacted you and your view of white and black?
John Fuller: As a child, when I moved with my parents, understood there were colored facilities and white facilities, and I never really understood that. Also, in eat-in facilities, they would serve whites in one area up front, but then blacks had to be served in the back. But what always puzzled me was white and black were separate. But when the money was collected, it all went in the same cash register. I never understood that. White water fountains and colored water fountains. I was looking for colored water but never saw colored water. It was you could see it's the same type of water. So those things as a child puzzled me. But as I grew older, I certainly understood that Jim Crowism’s said there was white supremacy, period. You didn't challenge a white person. If a white person said something, a declaration on your behalf or against you, that was law, you accepted that. That's the way it was. That was Jim Crowism. That's not necessarily the case now, although I think it still carries some weight.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So, there are many black voices that have come out in recent days that a lot of white people have rallied to. I'm thinking of Candace Owens. I'm thinking of Larry Elder. I'm thinking of Shelby Steele, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, who will say, and I'm going to paraphrase and kind of make a conglomeration of all of them, they'll basically say, yes, Jim Crow laws were horrible. Obviously, slavery was an awful thing. But those things are now well enough in our past. And they don't believe that there's such a thing today as systemic racism, or maybe that there's isolated racist incidents, but that there isn't some widespread racism and that the narrative of the continuation of systemic racism actually perpetuates kind of a poverty among black people that doesn't need to be, if black people would instead say we live where there's opportunity and chances to move forward. Now, I'm putting some words in their mouths. But that seems to be the argument that many have made. But what do you say to that line of thinking? Is that helpful? Is that hurtful? Is that realistic? Unrealistic? How should people hear those voices that are saying something so different than what is being said by so many others?
John Fuller: Well, I think certainly the media has a narrative that they share and put forth. And it depends on whether or not you play into that narrative or some other the list of people that you mentioned, Shelby Steele, and others. They have the perspective, Walt Harris, that certainly the war on poverty that was started by Lyndon Johnson, affirmative action, some of these programs that have actually been to the detriment of black people because it prevented us from actually using our creativity, ingenuity, and moving forward toward freedom. Why? Because the government is giving and you don't you don't have to do anything for it, you just take it. Well, I don't quite buy all of that. I was hired on affirmative action. And clearly in the corporate world at that time, affirmative action was thought about whites as here is a group of black folks who don't belong here. You're not qualified to be here. So, you had to work extra hard to prove in fact, that you didn't belong. And I think those of us who survived, in fact, did that. It wasn't easy. But we certainly had the opportunity to do that because of affirmative action. Now those who say affirmative action actually did not help us, well, I think the jury's out on that from an individual perspective.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, so what was it like to be hired knowing that you were hired by an affirmative action initiative? You said you knew you had to work harder. Was it a positive experience for you or a negative experience? Do you think you would have had the job that you ended up with had it not been for that?
John Fuller: Probably not. When I got out of the service, I was recruited at three or four, maybe five places I recall, General Foods at White Plains, New York, General Electric and Macon, Georgia, the Kennedy Space Center for kids in Florida, and the H.J. Heinz company in Pittsburgh. I interviewed at three of those. And I chose the H.J. Heinz company. I don't think I would have been at either one of those had it not been for affirmative action. So, did it help me? Yes. I think in my particular case, it helped me. I did not wait for the government to hand me anything. I worked and earned that. I believe I've shown within the historical perspective of the Heinz company that I contributed.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. When you hear people today talk about systemic racism, then we kind of talked about, you know, some people would say, we're not sure that this is a helpful category. What do you hear in that which is helpful? What do you hear in that that's unhelpful?
John Fuller: I think of two cases that where I still think there's a lot of work to be done, particularly in real estate. If you look at where people live and how people live, we're basically still segregated. They're basically white communities. They're black communities or whatever. In real estate, I think there's a concerted effort to make sure it stays that way. For example, if a community is white, predominately white, that it stays white, if it's predominantly black, it stays black. And that's due to the dynamics of real estate and the wishes of people.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, how does that work in reality? Like if somebody says, obviously you chose to move into an area that was predominantly white. How did that work for you that you wanted to do it and why you chose to do it? And what were the factors that were against it?
John Fuller: When we searched for real estate, we lived in East Pittsburgh. We look east, west, and north, and we really couldn't find the house that we wanted. It so happened that there was a developer in Wexford, who was developing property. We looked at it, and it was exactly what we wanted. We could afford it. We were the only black family in that particular development. And it's basically remained that way for all of these years. We moved here in December 1986. And while there has been turnover in the community, there's still only one black family.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, you've been the lone black family in that development for almost 34 years?
John Fuller: Yes. And there's been turnover, at least half of the community. And at all times, there have been white people who come look, but I've never seen a minority come look.
Kurt Bjorklund: Hmm. So, I guess my question is, why? If it's affordable, obviously there's people who have the resources to do that. It's a desirable school system. What are the forces that are conspiring to keep it that way? I guess if I can ask that question.
John Fuller: I think it's the practice of real estate to show people where they want to live. And that tends to say if I can be candid, when blacks move in, whites move out. That's been my experience. It was the experience in the east but has not been experienced in the north. And I think the reason for that is real estate people are showing white people white communities and are taking black people to basically black communities. Now, that might not be the case for people in sports, for some of corporate America, but for the most part, that's been my experience.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, so are the real estate agents racist? Are they just conditioned to where they think people want to be shown homes? What drives that? I guess if that's an indication of some kind of systemic issue.
***John Fuller: I think it's the sensitivity issue, but I don't think its necessarily racism. I think it is the practice of how people want to live. For example, I mean, this is a rhetorical question. How many black families live in your neighborhood? How many black families do you associate with? If you look at that, it's part of the issue. And I have to ask myself the same question. If we want to change things, the dynamic in our society, we have to look at how we associate one on one in our families and in our communities. So, if I don't have white people to come to my house that I socialize with on a regular basis, it's probably not going to be the case that we would be living in the same neighborhood. Probably going to the same school and definitely not the same church. And that's just how things are, and vice versa. So, when you look at and you say, gee whiz, there are no black people in this community or there are no white people in that community, I wouldn't say that is racism, it's how we have decided we want to live. Is that a good thing? I would say not. And in order to overcome that, then you and I need to really understand each other. We need to listen to each other. Understand your perspective. What does white privilege mean to you? What does white guilt mean to you? What does systemic racism mean to me? We need to sit and talk about those things. We need to listen, and we need to try to understand. I'm not sure we've done a lot of that today. Every time something happens bad, a black person is killed. Then the news media hops on that. The leaders come out and they take advantage of that. Sometimes a commission is formed to study why that happens, and then it dies down, nothing gets done. So, if things are going change, it actually has to change between people like you and me and other whites and blacks to sit down and really try to understand the dynamics of our culture and what it is we want. Do we really understand each other? Is it a matter of white guilt? Is it a matter of racism? If so, how do we deal with this? What's our strategy? How we vote, where we live, where we bank, who we associate with, all of these things play as part of it.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. So, as you look at the landscape today, obviously our nation has become charged on this issue again in recent days. Is that helpful in leading somewhere? Is there a negative side to that? How do you see that? Especially with your long history of seeing race relations in our country, and then well, let me ask that, and then I have a follow up.
John Fuller: As things are happening today, I don't understand all the dynamics. The Black Lives Matter, I think I understand why this formed. The idea is to work against police brutality in the black community for people who are underserved. How do you change that though? That's the part I don't understand. What is the strategy? What are the outcomes that we are expected to have in the Black Lives Matter movement? It's one thing to demonstrate against it, but how do you change it? What is the strategy to change it? What are the expected outcomes?
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So one of the things I've heard white people say, and they're all over the spectrum on whether they would call themselves this or not, I'm woke, I don't think there's such a thing as systemic racism or white privilege, and people are all over the place. But one of the things I've heard from some people is, I'm all for people who are black being treated equally, there shouldn't be any discrimination or racism. But when I see things like rioting and looting, being tied to the protest, it makes me recoil from the whole thing. And then some others I've heard say, Black Lives Matter seems to, as an organization, care about certain black lives, but certainly not all black lives. Because, you know, you take the young man who was killed in the chop zone, who was black, and there was very little outcry over that. And so how do we know which Black Lives are supposed to matter per Black Lives Matter? How do you relate to that?
John Fuller: Well, first of all, from what I've observed, the Black Lives movement has been infiltrated by people and groups who don't have the same objectives as Black Lives Matter. There's is more of destruction. And it's not black people and other blacks actually doing the demonstrating and looting, and Karen Down, is actually whites and others whose motives are different than the Black Lives movement. That's one thing. So, the other thing is, everyone doesn't have the same circumstance so how do we, as African Americans, help those who are in the lower echelon of society? How do we help and how to whites help to do that? If demonstration will get the attention of whites, I think it's good. If demonstration will get the attention of Congress, I think it's good. But if it's just demonstration, to let off steam, and to show our dislike for what's going on in society without a plan, I don't think it's going to have much good.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So, if you could change something, if there was an outcome tomorrow that came out of this cultural moment, that changed something that would be the enduring, lasting change, and I'm talking about structural change. Like obviously, if we could wave a wand and change everyone's heart, that's a great thing, but I'm talking about an outcome. What would you say would really be a positive outcome of this moment?
John Fuller: One outcome - If a black person could go, buy, and associate with whomever he wanted to anywhere in the United States, that would be a positive outcome to me.
Kurt Bjorklund: And you don't believe that is possible today?
John Fuller: No, I don't think so. As an example, in the 70s, Muhammad Ali wanted to buy real estate in West Pittsburgh. He was not allowed to do that. He had the resources. But he was not allowed to do it because of where it was located. It would not accept African Americans. Another thing, K. Leroy Irvis was speaker of the house for Pennsylvania, but he could not go to Duquesne club. It's things like that and other vestiges still today. I think there will be in some places. So what I'm saying is if a black person, is as equal as white, could go any place in the United States, buy, sell, live, associate, and go wherever he wanted to, that would be a positive outcome. But I don't think that's going to come out of the demonstrations that are happening today in the street. And the reason why it says Black Lives Matter, well, it's not only police brutality, but in other aspects of our lives, where we live, where we bank, where we're buy groceries, and who we associate with. There are still lines of demarcation there.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, you've been a Christian man for years as well. How has your Christian faith impacted your view on your own journey in terms of black and white, and how you're seeing the world today?
John Fuller: It's been a long journey. I started out early at age 12. I accepted Christ as my Savior. I must admit that point has not grown to the point where I am now. I grew in my faith. I was taught early by my parents, do unto others as you would have them to do unto you. That sort of stuck with us as children. As children there were three things we had to do. We knew work, church, and school. Those three things you had to perform. I recall growing up, we as children had to read the Bible on Sunday morning before we went to church. We were given certain scriptures to read. We were not always patient and willing to read these, but we had we had to read them. The 23rd Psalm for example, First Corinthians 13, Matthew 5:44, Love your enemies. These things at the time as a child did not stick. But the 23rd Psalm came in very handy when I went to college and was a student demonstrating on the picket lines. When you were approached by police, and police dogs or whatever, to be able to recite that in your mind. It had meaning. It didn't have meaning when we were growing up as children. It was something we had to do, eat, get dressed, and go to church. Again, in service, the 23rd Psalm comes back. Martin Luther King talked about love your enemies. As a child, we did not understand. How do you love your enemy? I mean, how do you do that? But Martin Luther King taught us how to do that. And the student demonstration taught us. It was shown actually in the module in Washington on August 28, 1963, the March on Washington, which I participated in. It all started to make sense to me. And then in corporate life, some of the challenges that I faced, some of the scripture and the things that we were taught as children, really helped me to prevail, to make it. And then the teaching that I experience at Orchard Hill Church certainly has helped me in that group.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, military veteran and Vietnam War. One of the issues that's been kind of talked about here in recent days is the kneeling during the national anthem. Obviously, some people feel like that's a great way to bring attention to an issue. Others feel like it's disrespectful to the nation, to veterans, and the flag. How have you perceived that thought about that issue?
John Fuller: That's very difficult because I think the way it's been positioned in our culture; I think the motivation was real. There are disparities in the race. There is racism in our society. And Collin wanted to draw attention to that. Now, the way that he did it certainly was an affront to some people. And when the President got involved and attached patriotism to that, it then became a different thing. How do I feel personally? Would I take a knee? I don't know. It all depends on the circumstance. What does it mean to take a knee? I don't say that's wrong for someone who wants to do it. But is that going to help me get what it is we are trying to get? I am not sure it will. If it's going to alienate some, or alienate all, maybe we should find a different way to do it. But if you feel strongly that will help break the chains, then I support the one that wants to do it.
Kurt Bjorklund: One of the things that I find challenging with that is, sometimes it feels like in our culture, we set up a dichotomy or a binary choice, rather than being able to be for the country and for racial equality. For police officers, who were the majority, are people who say we want to serve well, and yet for the end of brutality, to people of black racial background, and instead, we set up these binaries where you can't be both at the same time. And that, to me seems like an unfortunate thing. And I understand that part of that is they're saying in order to draw the line, you've got to make it clearer. But that is just something I've observed. One of the arguments for systemic racism that people make, and seems fair, is that you have generations of people who've lived in poverty, and that the systems have conspired to keep people in poverty. So you're somebody who was able to, and I don't know how much poverty or not lack of poverty you had as a child, but you were able to certainly live as an executive at a significant company and do very well financially. Why were you able to do well when so many other people from that era, Jim Crow, whatever you want to put around it, had the system as the reason that they weren't able to do well? What made the difference?
John Fuller: I shared with you three things that my parents insisted on. And they insisted on these things because they felt if we pursued those, and were successful, that we could beat Jim Crow, and any other crow in the world. That is hard work, church, religion, God, and education. Now, my parents did not have a formal education. My father went to the fifth grade, and my mom to the ninth grade. They were stopped because they had to work. But they knew in order for their children to succeed in the world, that they had to do things for themselves. And those were the three things that they instilled in us. And because of that, all six of their children are educated, all six of the children had professional careers, and all the children are at or in retirement at this time.
Kurt Bjorklund: So, wouldn't that again, just if somebody's listening, wouldn't that be an argument against systemic racism?
John Fuller: With my long journey, I would say no.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So, unpack that just because I can imagine somebody listening right now saying, well, you just proved that with hard work, church and education, parents will to say we're going to direct you, form you, push you, that you can overcome even though there were bigger problems than today, but you were able to come through. Help somebody understand that.
John Fuller: While I feel like I had a successful career, there were challenges along the way. While I was successful, and some of my white counterparts were successful, along basically the same track, we encountered very different circumstances. For example, working twice as hard to get half as much. We've heard that one before. First hired, last hired, first fired. These are things that as an African American, I think we all had to deal with. And then once you get the job, what you had to do in order to keep the job, was always prove that you could perform, but it was always more than your white counterpart. So, in that vein, while I feel that I am successful, my family was successful, there were prices paid along the way. In the military, the same thing, integrated service, but it was very difficult to go up the ranks because of those who were in charge. Now, yes, you perform your duty, you kept a clean nose, but then you can only go but so far because the perception was African Americans shouldn't go beyond this level. Another example, the lower ranks, drill sergeants and what have you, the work areas of the military, the kitchen mess hall, African Americans were had leeway to perform there. But as you go up the chain, it's much more difficult. And you can say, well, the officers want to promote those who look like them, and they've felt comfortable with them. That's probably the case. But still barriers were there, and they are there even today.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. So, having grown up back in the 50s, what would you say to young black men today that would be helpful to them? What would you say to younger white men and women today that would be helpful and what would you say to black men and women that would be helpful? What would you say to people who haven't had your longevity, your experience, your eyes, that this is maybe their first kind of cultural moment where race has become front and center?
John Fuller: There's so much opportunity in the marketplace. It exists for anyone. Blacks in particular, you have to work to earn your way to make your contribution. For whites, you don't have to give up something. In other words, there's white privilege. Maybe there's white guilt. Those are the things maybe that you have to work on in our culture as a young person. Does these change how you look at African Americans, how you relate to them, and interact with them, or your expectations of them? Are you going to let the media drive how you perceive people? In other words, are you going to have your own framework because of your own experience with ethnic groups, rather than perceive and look at what's on TV? You have to make choices on your own in how you relate to people. For blacks, there are many opportunities out there, but we have to prepare ourselves to accept them. It's not going to come and sit in our lap. The opportunity is there. We have to apply ourselves. I think if we can do that, I think opportunity is there, its' not going to be easy, it’s not all pie and cake at this point, but it's possible. I use myself as an example.
Kurt Bjorklund: Last question, and if there is anything else you want to say about this whole topic, we'd love to hear that. What would you say to someone who says, you've chosen to live in a whiter area? You said yourself that you've been the only black family in your neighborhood for a generation at this point. What would you say to someone who says, why did you make that choice? What's the benefit of that? Rather than saying I don't choose to be a in a place where I'm the only person, at least from a neighborhood, obviously there is more diversity around the area than just that neighborhood, but it's predominantly a white area.
John Fuller: I would say that was approaching the American dream. I've had experience in poor, neighborhoods, predominantly black. I lived in neighborhoods where it was mixed. I lived in the military which was probably more diverse than any place. I lived in a mixed area in Pittsburgh when I first came. I moved into a predominantly white area that became predominantly black. And it so happened that I had the resources and choice to buy in Wexford without impediment, and I did. And I think I contributed to all those areas where I lived. So, I don’t think once you just say I want to live in a black area, or I want to live in an all-white area, that's choice. But I've had different experiences along the way. Each one I think benefited me. I live in a predominantly white area now because I can afford to do that, and it had the amenities that I wanted. I've not had any issues.
Kurt Bjorklund: I know you have made a significant contribution to Orchard Hill over the years in a variety of ways. Any last comments you would like to make or things that you think would be helpful?
John Fuller: The one thing I would say now, is there’s a lot of dialogue from a lot of people, and a lot of places around the world. If we're going to live together and be productive together, we have to learn what each other wants and needs are. And until we do that, I don't think there is going to be much progress. There's going to pockets of people and ideas around the world. But once we as people understand the needs of all, and all our needs are basically the same. In America, the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. We all want that regardless of race. How do we go about getting that? We have to understand each other, how we interact, and how we individually can help each other to secure the American dream. We aren't there yet. But I think we can get there if we listen, learn, and understand from each other, and then pursue that - the happiness we all want in America.
Kurt Bjorklund: Thank you for taking the time today to give your perspective and thank you to those out there for taking the time to listen.
