Ask a Pastor Ep. 68 - Gender Roles and Submission
Episode Description
This episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, talks with three women on staff at Orchard Hill Church, Emily DeAngelo, Emily Roberts and Kay Warheit, about genders roles in today's society, the concept of submission and what the Bible has to say about it.
Episode Transcript
Kurt Bjorklund: Hi, welcome today for Ask a Pastor. I'm joined by a three different women who are part of our ministry team here at Orchard Hill. On my far left is Emily Roberts, who leads our Children's Ministry. Next is Kay Warheit, who led women's ministry at our Wexford Campus for years, now leads Women's Ministry and works with all of the ministry in Butler County as well. And then Emily DeAngelo is immediately to my left, who is leading, along with some others, our Women's Ministry at Wexford now, as well as working with Life Stage Ministry and helping some with overseeing what happens in Kids Ministry. So welcome. Nice of all of you to join us.
Kurt Bjorklund: So today we're going to address something that is challenging in many ways in the church, and outside the church. This is something we've actually received several questions about this for this podcast, so I've kind of taken those questions and condensed them into what we'll do in this episode and then a coming episode. So today we're going to focus on a passage in the Bible that says, "Wives submit to your husbands." It says it in a few different places. Says it in Ephesians, it says it in Colossians. There's a reference in 1 Peter as well. So it's not just an offhanded comment. This has caused challenge in the broader culture, and in the church, because for many people they say this feels male hierarchical, feels demeaning in some way.
Kurt Bjorklund: So the first question is really, how do you deal with that kind of both biblically and then personally? How do you deal with just the fact that it's in the Bible? How do you interpret it, understand it? And then, how do you deal with it personally? Who wants to go first?
Emily DeAngleo: I'll jump in. I think that this word, submit, can be a little bit taboo in our culture, but I don't think it needs to be if we define it clearly and understand what it means to submit. Maybe think of it as serving one another with always thinking of the best interests of someone else. If you think about the famous passage in scripture on what is love, the definition of love, it looks like not being self-serving or keeping a record of wrong. Rather, it's about thinking of others above myself. Not thinking of myself less, but thinking more often of someone else.
Emily DeAngleo: So I think about it in a husband/wife relationship, that those passages, the Letters of Paul, he talks about, to families, about submitting to one another. He's not asking women to do something that he's not also asking men to do, to submit to one another and to submit to our ultimate authority, and that's Christ.
Emily DeAngleo: So, when we think about that, this challenge, it is a challenge, but it is mutually edifying when we serve one another and submit to one another, whether that is submitting to the authority, bowing my knee. I've heard you say recently when we submit we bow our knee to God's authority, and I think that's a beautiful picture of what it means to live under his umbrella of what is best in our lives.
Emily DeAngleo: So just unpacking the terms a little bit with women is helpful, just to see what it could look like in our lives. Maybe one of you have an illustration of what this might look like in everyday life.
Kay Warheit: Well, I do, I hear you say God, and I think that's the key, this whole verse, or these scriptures in Colossians are about Holy living, and if you do not have God in your life, submit makes no sense. It's hard to comprehend why you would want to submit, and I think, personally, I grew up in a single home. I had no male authority. Went to college in the 70s when it was women's right, women's liberation. So to come to church, which I love, I came through Women of the Bible, I came to Christ, to know God's love. So then when I got married, living independently, paying for my own college education, I'm now a new believer and I'm married to a Christian, and two weeks after we were married, I had a flat tire and I called him at work, he had gone to work before me, and I said, "My tire's flat." He said, "Well, what did you do before we were married?" And I said, "I called AAA." And he said, "Well, then call AAA."
Kay Warheit: And I think that the pendulum can swing too far now that we're married, you take care of everything, I'll submit to you. And that's not very practical. That's not loving, what you were saying. I wasn't thinking of him, you fix this, and thinking I'm submitting. So I think it is, the whole chapter is Holy living, you cannot understand that scripture without a God. You can't understand the order, the God of order. There are seasons. He created the world in days, it wasn't all in one. God is a God of order, and when he says there is authority and Jesus came under his authority, and the husband is to come under that authority, and then the wife. We love order and we don't like rules until it applies to somebody else. Why aren't they obeying the rules? But it is a God of order and a God of love, and without God that scripture makes no sense or it's offensive to say you must submit.
Kay Warheit: Emily, you're a lot younger. How do you see it?
Emily Roberts: Well, it's funny because, a part of my story is that I'm a millennial, and I think, hot topic today. You sometimes... I think it could be easy to associate honor of women with a progressive mindset. And oh... becomes this progressive/conservative conversation where I love that we have a third way in scripture that is way better than anything that we could pursue progressively or conservatively. And I loved how someone put that. I read an article in The Gospel Coalition, thank God we have a third way that is different.
Kay Warheit: Yeah.
Emily Roberts: And whole and better.
Emily Roberts: But you know, of course, I'm from the Beyonce era that's like, "Who run the world? Girls." Who run... you know that song. And so it's been hard for me to... I was confessing to Emily yesterday. I said, "I really, until I got married, which has only been for four years, have I... I started, I needed to be humbled, really, because I think that I... a big part of my identity was this maybe Beyonce mindset, I call it, of just, empowered, and I can do this, and I can do that, and I can do this. And maybe not loudly, but internally I had that in me, and I've really had to be humbled in marriage to realize, oh my gosh, thank goodness, thank goodness it's not all about me. Thank goodness there is another way, another perspective. I don't know if I'm being clear, but, until I got married I guess I didn't realize the real value of that, that there is order good.
Kay Warheit: That's a good one. That's a good point.
Emily Roberts: And I'm still not totally resolved with that in my... Inside my heart I struggle with it still, as a wife, and as a woman in ministry. So, trying to wrap my mind around it, honestly, still, but...
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. So what would you say if somebody says, well, even just the presence of the word, whether you want to call it a third way or whatever phrase you want to use, is misinterpreting the Bible. It's irrelevant if it is in the Bible, and it's even damaging to women to even use phrases like that from the Bible, so this is something that should just be jettison from current vocabulary, from discussion anywhere. What would you say if somebody had that question or observation?
Emily Roberts: Well, I guess, do you think it's important? I wonder... because I know I needed to sort of define what scripture actually says. Can we define that?
Kurt Bjorklund: Please.
Emily Roberts: Because... so Genesis, I looked at Genesis before we talked, and maybe, I don't know if we should read that, but, Adam first, Eve was second. And then of course, I know, Tim, we're going to talk about 1 Timothy 2 here, later. But we've talked about the complimentary view is the view of scripture, that male and female are both made in the image of God, is clear, what scripture says. Both have equal value and equal standing before God, and yet there are different roles in the home, in the church. And so the word that was talked about here was complimentary. And then, I know that there's also other folks that have the egalitarian. I can not get that word, view, and so, complimentary. I don't know if you guys want to add to that definition, but just understanding what the word actually meant was important for me in the conversation.
Kay Warheit: I, well, personally I think when you have a very healthy pastor who is growing spiritually, or a staff, men and women do have complimentary roles and they appreciate each other. Unfortunately, in business you can have men with ego. In the church, you can have men with egos, that, what I say is the final. You can have a marriage where a husband says. I think a marriage, in the church, in a business, I do believe it's complimentary. And then understanding, again, somebody has to be the final say. And I think that you have a classroom, there's a teacher, you have the school, there's a principal, there's a superintendent. There has to be order or nothing gets done, and we crave order. And in that complimentary role, the order is, let's work together. But somebody has to have the final say. Somebody is where the buck stops here.
Kay Warheit: And I think when, again, you have healthy spiritually growing pastors or staff, that's not an issue. That becomes a real asset to the church. Well, let's ask the women's view. Let's ask the men's view. Let's have the women do this or the men will do this. But the bottom line is, Jesus chose 12 disciples and he very much had women who he went to their home, he asked them, Paul worked with women in the New Testament, and they had roles at a time, and this is part of Paul's issue, that women were shut up in the Greek and Roman homes. They were not allowed out once you got married. The man went out and had fun. And Paul's addressing that, but it's also very modern to me in that today a lot of the women are getting married because the wedding is the thing rather than, what is your vision? What is your commitment to this marriage? What is your commitment to any relationship that you have, where you're working with men and women? Are you out to prove I'm somebody, I have something to say or you say, the vision for this organization, this church, is this?
Kay Warheit: So, I'm like you, am I making any sense? But I do think it is a beautiful thing and that's what Paul's addressing when he says submit. But, men love those women, and then men don't abuse your children. Don't discourage, was the word in the Bible, meaning, turning them away. So it's three together, not women submit, period. Women submit, period. It's men, are you serving God?
Emily Roberts: Are you laying your life down?
Kay Warheit: Yes.
Emily Roberts: It's what it says.
Kay Warheit: Like Christ did for the church is what it says. And again, if you're not understanding the faith and the love of God and the grace of God, this is harsh. This is... the word submit is not a pretty word, but it is out of context, you have to look at the whole thing.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's helpful. One of the things I've always found helpful in talking about, especially in marriage, is that any marriage will be in trouble if the wife goes into the marriage saying, "You're supposed to lay down your life for me like Christ laid his life down for the church, so you should." Or, if a husband goes in and says, "Well, you're supposed to submit, so you should." As soon as you start with either of those mindsets you'll end up with a self-serving marriage. And the point, I believe, of both the idea of submit and love as Christ loved the church is ultimately selflessness. If the men will hear the call, which is actually a harder higher call.
Kay Warheit: It is.
Kurt Bjorklund: To lay down your life like Christ loved the church. And will say, my job is to love my wife, like Christ loved the church, and I don't need to worry about whether or not she submits or what she does or doesn't do.
Kay Warheit: Right, right.
Kurt Bjorklund: I need to worry about this. And if a wife says, "I don't need to worry about how he loves me like that, I need to worry about giving deference and selflessness into my marriage," then all of a sudden it doesn't sound so daunting. But when we just read, wives submit to your husbands, and stop, then we say, oh my goodness, this feels archaic.
Kay Warheit: Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: Rather than something that actually should transcend all time.
Kay Warheit: Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: And give some hope to people in any marriage to say, this is an idea. That, to me, seems to help with people who say this is irrelevant and doesn't need to be even talked about because it's even damaging to women.
Kurt Bjorklund: But, having said that, there are people who have used this to oppress and to hold down. So, when does that become an obvious issue? When is it that you would say, okay, now somebody is taking this passage and using it in a way that's inappropriate, that isn't helpful, that needs some boundaries? Or somebody might even need to get out of a relationship where somebody is even somewhat abusive and using scripture as a club or a tool to help facilitate that. How do you see that?
Emily DeAngleo: Well, the whole of scripture is life giving, and the better way, that we've just talked about. If it's used against someone and in an abusive situation or holding someone down or zapping the life out of their existence, then it's misappropriated, I would believe. And that should be called out.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay.
Kay Warheit: Well, exactly what you were saying. If a woman is submitting without any thought, any discussion, and then feeling abused, feeling like she doesn't matter, dreading her husband coming home, dreading a conversation, dreading, I made a mistake and I'm afraid to tell him because I need to submit. But again, if it's not out of love, then that is abusive. And I think there are a lot of signs of that. And I firmly believe God did not intend for us to live in an abusive relationship. I think anybody would agree to that.
Kay Warheit: But in the church, I think we are given... it's a misunderstanding that, doesn't matter how bad it is, you got to stay in that marriage. And I think there's counseling. I think there are ways for women, themselves, to abuse. He told me what to do. My husband won't allow me to vote for this person. And it's like, well, you have your own mind. We use them for an excuse, that's not abuse for the woman, that's abusing her husband. Putting things on him.
Kay Warheit: But I think if a woman comes in and she talks to me and she's crying or she's afraid of her husband, there's fear and there's Holy fear. I have a Holy fear of spending too much money. Not because I'm afraid of my husband, but because I respect him and I don't want him to say, "What happened to the money?" But I do not fear, and I use this coming in the door at night, I look forward to it and I hear women say, "Oh, when he comes home I dread it," or "I'm afraid to tell him this happened." That's not healthy, and that's not submission, that's living in abuse. And that's not that it can't be solved or it needs to be dissolved. There is counseling and maybe some misunderstanding. I thought if I loved him I would be doing what he said, but you also have been given a mind. And again, that complimentarian approach, we need to work together to serve the Lord, not to just see if I can do everything you tell me to do. Does that answer?
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. Emily, thoughts on that?
Emily Roberts: I don't know if I have any. I think I'd be repeating what they said.
Kurt Bjorklund: So what... so all of you have been married for a while, you've all been Christians and have grappled with this on some level. What would you say to a young woman who has not yet been married, who believes, kind of, in the Bible? I don't mean that disrespectfully when I say kind of, but says, "Yeah, I generally believe this, but there's some parts I'm not sure about, and this is one of them." What would you say to a woman like that as she thinks about the possibility of getting married and how this relates to her?
Kay Warheit: Well, we're all individual and I would say, how are you approaching this? Did you have an abusive father? What scares you about this part? And I mean, I would have to be honest and say, in our marriage I haven't submitted to everything. Not on purpose, but I have my own personality, and I think, individually, what is it that scares you? What does it look like? And then, don't use that verse as your life verse for your marriage. Submit is not the point. The point is to, what is the vision for this? And my vision, when we were married, was to be this Christian couple, that we were going to be successful, like other couples we saw. And Matt lost his job within the first year of our marriage and I thought, what did I do wrong? Or, what are we doing wrong? Why aren't we successful? So my vision was off. So then it came to, what do I really want? How do I want to serve the Lord?
Kay Warheit: Submission just kind of came in there. Whatever my husband said, it wasn't blind, but it was, we needed to be together, we needed to have the same understanding. And then the word, the word divorce never ever, ever came up. I think that can be an escape. If I have to submit to him, then I'll just leave him. I'll just get divorced. It has to be an understanding commitment. And then, don't think you can do this alone. You need other couples. You need the church. I'm a firm believer in women's Bible studies that we, oh, you have that problem or how did you solve it? I think we feel isolated and I have to do this, I have to submit, and I have to be this perfect wife, which is just insane. It's just... that's not the way God... We are to be together to live this Holy life and not use that one verse as our life verse.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay.
Emily Roberts: I just... I think to... Kay, you hinted at earlier, it's so easy to look at this verse and to breeze past it because it feels really uncomfortable or it feels, maybe to some of us, well this is wrong. How is this even right? If there's not an understanding of the whole of scripture and how Jesus honored women in a way that was counter-cultural. So looking at the whole picture and not just assuming, oh, this is so outdated, or this is so old school and this doesn't apply to today.
Emily Roberts: Now, I know there are debates where some folks would say, and I guess I'd love to hear some of your thoughts, but particularly in the Ephesians church. And I know we'll talk more about the church. But I know that some folks would say, "Well that was just specific to that time. The women were acting out," for lack of a better word, or "not well trained and so they shouldn't have been teaching." I know that there's some different perspectives that I've had to... I'm still understanding and figuring out and becoming really resolved in what's true about that. But, I think that the... if we look at the whole of scripture and not just plucking something out, then I do think that the whole of scripture gives a really broad, full picture of-
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah.
Emily Roberts: ...that shouldn't discourage a young woman-
Kurt Bjorklund: Right.
Emily Roberts: ... from considering ministry or, I'm sorry, marriage, because she feels like she's just going to be squelched or something.
Kurt Bjorklund: I heard something years ago, and this wasn't about this issue, but it's just kind of an old story. That a lady was about to get married and she was in a checkout line and was getting ready and obviously was preparing for her wedding. And the lady behind her just congratulated her on it. And she said, "Oh, how long have you been married?" She said, "I've been married 45 years." And the younger woman said, "Well, I can't even imagine such a thing." And the older lady, without missing a beat, said, "Young lady, don't get married until you can." And her point was to say, don't trifle with this, if you can't see yourself with somebody for 45 years, maybe you shouldn't marry. And to apply that to this situation, if you're marrying somebody who's giving their life away to you, it probably isn't very intimidating. If you're marrying somebody who isn't, it feels oppressive.
Kurt Bjorklund: So maybe the issue is saying, it's almost set there to be a protection, even before you get married. And in terms of the church and Ephesus, because it shows up in Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Peter, it's hard to make, probably, the cultural argument entirely because of how pervasive that is. And then you would say, well, is the command to men, to love as Christ loved the church, maybe that doesn't need to be today. It's hard in one passage to say, oh, that part's cultural and this part isn't, and so on. So it seems to have an abiding, at least principal, that's there. Now, I think it can be lived out differently. I don't think that means it's a far cry from things like doing whatever somebody says, that's not submission in any level, that's very different. But I think that's a helpful thought to say, see that ahead of time as a challenge, to say, if I can't see myself giving deference to somebody then maybe that's not somebody that I want to marry.
Kurt Bjorklund: So any last thoughts on this? Otherwise, we'll wrap up this topic. And then in a future podcast, we'll talk about, more specifically, the church. Any final thoughts?
Emily DeAngleo: The encouragement I would give to a young soon to be married woman is, a cord of three strands is not easily broken. So if you wind your life around the Lord together, that, that's going to be a strong foundation for marriage. And again, it gives us picture of serving one another and seeking him together. And it shows the world the picture that God wants us to show in the marriage relationship, and that is of Christ and his bride.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. Well, very good. Well, thank you. Thanks for spending part of your day with Ask a Pastor. And if you have questions you can send them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com, we'll be happy to address them in the days ahead. Have a great day.
