Ask a Pastor Ep. 69 - Women and Church Leadership
Episode Description
This episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, talks with three women on staff at Orchard Hill Church, Emily DeAngelo, Emily Roberts and Kay Warheit, about women in church leadership roles and what the bible says about the differences between men and women.
Episode Transcript
Kurt Bjorklund: Hi, welcome to ask a pastor today I'm joined by three of the ladies who serve on part of our staff here at Orchard Hill. Emily Roberts, Kay Warheit, Emily DeAngelo, welcome. And today we're going to tackle an issue that is in some ways hard and in other ways, it is something that's been going on for a long time. Maybe it's not as hard for some people, but we're going to talk about women's roles in the church specifically. And some of you have asked this question, have asked the question about where does Orchard Hill stand on it? How or why is certain beliefs, are certain beliefs held? So we're going to talk about the idea of complimentary views.
Kurt Bjorklund: So complementarianism is the idea that men and women were created in the image of God, created equal in the image of God, but given different roles by gender. And we did a podcast that should be out last week that was on gender roles in marriage, and gender roles in marriage.,Gender roles in church tend to be similar because there's a movement among many today to say let's flatten all gender distinctions. And this goes on certainly in the broader culture and in the church. And for some this becomes an issue that goes to transgenderism, goes to homosexual orientation, and goes to any kind of gender role. And in a way, all of those are related to the same conversation. And that is did God make men different and women different, or did God just create us biologically different? But there's no other distinction between men and women.
Kurt Bjorklund: And so the complimentarian view says that God did create men and women with some distinction and that those distinctions are evidenced in some ways in marriage and in some ways in the church. And so one of the passages that is most often cited is first Timothy two, and certainly we can get into specific passages. And people will argue about different passages in different ways, but first Timothy two has the very clear statement about this. It says, "This then is the gospel for which I am suffering." I'm in second Timothy two. It would help if I'm in first Timothy two. I was like, why does that not look right?
Kurt Bjorklund: "A woman," this is verse 11 and following, "should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or assume authority over a man. She must be quiet." Now he's talking about the context of the church here. So it's not talking about anywhere else. "For Adam was formed first then Eve," tying it to created order, not just to the culture. So this isn't just something where he's saying this is just for this culture. He goes to culture here. "And then Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love, holiness and propriety."
Kurt Bjorklund: So challenging verses. Some churches say that's just cultural and then kind of go to the let's flatten all of the kind of gender distinctions. Other churches, and Orchard Hill would be among them, say there is some distinction in role between men and women and how we play that out is different. And we can talk about that if that's important.
Kurt Bjorklund: But my question for all of you is, so how do you deal with a passage like first Timothy two that seems to indicate that there's some distinction rooted in created order, not just in culture, that says there's something to men taking the lead in the church environment, which at a minimum seems like that's what that passage is saying. So how do you respond to that biblically? How do you respond to that personally?
Emily Roberts: Well, I really struggle. I really struggle with this honestly. I have not experienced a personal call myself to pastoral ministry, but I have female friends who have. And so I really wrestle with this and it leads me to say, "Well God, how does this harm kingdom work if a woman is a pastor? How does that get in the way and why is this God's design?" I struggle honestly, and obviously I am a woman in ministry, in children's ministry here at Orchard Hill. And my gifts I feel like are really able to be used here. In fact, I've grown. I've been encouraged to keep doing what I'm doing. But my role is not pastoral ministry or even that obviously of an elder. So I'm wrestling with this.
Kay Warheit: Well, I have always wrestled with it in that you don't want women in charge of men, but you send women missionaries to be in charge of men. And I could never quite figure out what the difference was. And I felt called to ministry at a very young age, but was told women weren't pastors. But that was at a time when there were no roles in the church. Women headed up the bake sales or women decorated. And I really felt called to ministry. And so I pushed it aside. And then it came out later when I came back to church in my 20s and was asked to teach. And as I said, I found Christ through the women of the Bible. I found the Shulamite lady who loved to, had the gift of hospitality. And she reached out to the prophet Elijah, and I found Deborah who was asked to lead. But she said, "As long as a man comes alongside me."
Kay Warheit: There was wisdom. There was an understanding of gender differences and your gifts not, "I need to be somebody in order to be a pastor." Wherever God calls me, and I absolutely love... Do I consider that I have a pastoral role? Absolutely. Do I want to stand up in front of men and teach them? No. I think I see the wisdom in that and I understand. Now if I'm asked to speak, I will. But it wouldn't be an ongoing, "You need to hear what I have to say." I want that male authority and again, I go to Jesus pick 12 or chose 12 disciples. But women were very much involved with their gifts in his ministry.
Kay Warheit: In fact, the first woman to find out who he was was the woman at the well because women love to talk and share and spread the news. The first woman to realize he was resurrected or the first person was a woman. What a blessing it is to be a woman in the church and again, it has to be a healthy understanding of your role and not I need a title, I need to have this after my name or before my name. That has nothing to do when you truly realize how short life is and if God calls you to ministry, whatever that role is, he will let you come alongside, enrich, and grow yourself. As you said, I truly am grateful that I am not a title pastor because that is a responsibility, but I feel I don't have any less respect, any less need, any less purpose.
Emily DeAngelo: I would echo that too and say that just because a woman doesn't have the title as pastor or is teaching mixed congregations on a regular basis doesn't mean she doesn't have influence in that Christian community. Because I think about how when I have one on one mentoring relationship with a woman and we are growing together, her marriage is impacted as much as my life has impacted by that relationship. And so there's this influence that goes out through that woman to woman relationship. That same thing happens in a life group or a Bible study as men and women share life together. Everyone is influenced and grows in that situation, and there's no need for the woman to have a message to preach or teach on a regular basis.
Emily DeAngelo: I guess what I'm trying to say is we have opportunities to teach and learn together without having to be called the pastor.
Kurt Bjorklund: Right. Well it seems like a lot of times the question becomes what can't women do rather than the positive side of gender distinction and modeling that in the church and for the home. And what I mean by that is much like the conversation about the home, that again was the previous podcast. If you focus on here's what this means, rather than here's the whole of what is being taught and the beauty of what marriage should be, then it becomes an obstacle. But as soon as you say no, this is about something broader and picturing something, and I believe, and this is why it's important to understand that this is really an issue that is at least tied to the flattening of gender by and large. And what I mean by that is saying that there is no distinction between men and women.
Kurt Bjorklund: And I think part of the point, and if you ask me what I have written scripture this way, my answer is no. It would be much easier to say, "Oh yeah, that's great," because that's in step with our culture. I get that. But just like when I was 16, I didn't understand why the Bible said wait to have sex until you're married. Now that I've been married for a few years, I'm like, "That's good. That makes sense." It didn't make sense then. So sometimes we don't understand exactly why something is the way it is. But as I've tried to understand it and grapple with it, I think saying that there is something to saying we want men to take the responsibility and the weight of the leadership part of it is meant to mirror and demonstrate that for the home rather than just saying there is no distinction. And that's why to me, the home and the church are tied in that way. And you can't have one without the other.
Kurt Bjorklund: And if you read through Ephesians five, it is clearly... There are some references there. Now that, again, we're back to the home, but where the male responsibility seems to be in provision and protection and in spiritual leadership. Now that doesn't mean that the woman wouldn't be a higher wage earner or shouldn't work or anything like that. I mean, I'd love if my wife was the higher wage earner. I mean, that'd be fine. I mean, there's no... I don't think that's what that's about, but it's saying that there's an impulse to say there's something right in a young man or a man of any age saying, "If I'm married or if I'm in a position of responsibility, I will not shrink from that."
Kurt Bjorklund: And I've said this half in jest, but everyone's a complimentarian at some point. And what I mean by this, and you've probably heard me use this analogy, is if I'm out walking with my wife and a big horrible dog comes along to attack us. And I say, "I'm out of here," because I can run faster. Stinks for her. You don't have to be a biblical complimentarian to say that's poor. If you're a man, stand there and... Now hear that though, even in saying, if you're a man, in our culture, they would say, Oh no, no, no, no, no. There should be nothing to that. It should be maybe you're bigger and stronger physically, so you should do that. But that's the only reason.
Kurt Bjorklund: So in the church context, the idea is even with elders of saying... Even though we have men and women on our board, analogous to deacon deaconesses. So we have male and females together, working together, making decisions. We do have male elders, but part of the idea is who takes the legal responsibility? Who's going to be sued if the church is sued? Whose name are on those things? Well, it's men. So why is that? In part, it's to model the taking of responsibility, privilege, protecting, saying this is what's behind that. And that's the idea. So how do you, if somebody says that's still is irrelevant, it's demeaning to women, it's somehow... It's out of step with our culture. I think it's misinterpreted Bible. How do you deal with those questions? Which there were a lot of questions but wanted you to have lots of space to talk.
Kay Warheit: Well, I went to a conference years ago and there was a woman who said, "I go to a church where I'm not allowed... No women are allowed in the platform. No women read the Bible. No women are allowed to do anything." And I felt that they speaker very wisely said to her, "Find another church," meaning you're not going to change. So to make that your hill to die on. That's what I always say to people, I want to do ministry. I don't want to change what Jesus set up in the Bible. And I do think that that's a little flip to say to someone, but I think when women make it a point to have the authority, be up front, you've lost the gospel. I feel that it's about me. Now again, on the other side there are churches where that is abused, and the men will do this and the women will bake the cookies. The women can't have any kind of role. That's very demeaning and I struggle with that myself.
Kay Warheit: But I think that when you were referencing, even in a marriage, we all have husbands that support us in ministry. And very rarely, I can't think of one time that I haven't spoken somewhere or taught that I haven't run it past Matt, my husband to say, "What's your view on this?" And lots of times he'll say, "Well, I don't get your point." I mean, that's a complimentarian marriage or complimentary marriage that's an approach-
Kurt Bjorklund: My wife says that to me all the time. What were you trying to say? Or what? But I do think that again, you lose all that when it becomes an issue. It's just hard to explain to someone who doesn't have the Lord first and the church becomes outdated. The church becomes our archaic. But once you get inside and you understand why that's that way or what it's really about. A creative God who would creatively use your talents, who creatively bring men and women together in ways that you can't imagine without that God. That's just what are the rules, and the rules are to love God first and then to understand he is a God of order.
Emily Roberts: Yeah, I like, Kurt, it was really helpful to hear you articulate the comparison to sex before marriage because this isn't the only thing in scripture that we say, "Why? Why? Why?" I think that nature created order, as you said. It's really interesting because as much as I struggle with this, I love when my husband gets into protective mode. So if as women, I think if we... I think it can be easy to bulk that and say, "Oh, I don't need that. I can do it," or whatever. When we first got married, Matt said, "Well," and this is a silly example, but Matt said, "I will have a gun in the home." I'm just giving an example. And I said, "Oh, I don't like guns at all." I'm not used to it. I didn't grow up with guns, but to him it was, if I don't have a way to protect my family and if something ever happens, I will be really crushed that I didn't have a way to protect my family. Silly example. Right. I know not everyone-
Kurt Bjorklund: That's a future podcast, by the way. But yes.
Kay Warheit: Guns, stay tuned.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yes. That's right.
Emily DeAngelo: So silly.
Kurt Bjorklund: No, that's not a silly example, because what you're saying is there was something in that that felt right to you to say... And I think that is the essence of saying in a church environment where you say, no distinction between men and women. What you're doing in a sense as you're saying to culture, your values trump what we read in the scripture and therefore there's nothing to this. And then you're going to raise a generation of boys and girls who will come along and say there is no gender distinction. And that's why this issue is tied to the broader gender issues in our culture because they're not separate. If you have a whole generation that grows up and says there's no distinction, the Bible is just cultural. Even if I don't like it, I can take it out, then you have no reason to stand on any other issue in the future.
Kurt Bjorklund: Now again, there will be people who will say, "Well, you shouldn't." And historically, if you look, and this is interesting to me, and again this comment I know will not be politically correct. But if you look, the denominations that first ordained women are all the ones that are now ordaining homosexuals and ordaining transgender. Now again, some people would say, "Well, of course, you should. That's biblical." My take would be to say I think to ordain somebody who clearly is not practicing exactly what the scripture teaches becomes problematic. So now that's not, that in and of itself is not an argument not to do something because that's a projection. But what I'm saying is historically you see that move because once you said there is no gender distinction, then there is no gender distinction.
Kurt Bjorklund: And so really the question, the key question is, is there any gender distinction? And if there isn't, then you're absolutely right to say... Somebody would be absolutely right to say, let's just move ahead. If there's some, then you're going to have some inconsistency in where and how you try to live that out. Just like in a marriage. It's a fluid conversation that you say there's some distinction in our way, but I would rather keep saying to young people in our church and in our society, there's something that God created good about male and female distinction and the way that they live and honor one another. And then the question is how do you do that in a complimentary way? So any other thoughts on that specifically? We've got about three, four minutes left.
Kay Warheit: I think I've mentioned this before, when I was in my 20s in my Living Bible, I wrote, "The holier a woman is, the more she is a woman." And again, it's not an issue of my rights. What do I get to do? But growing close to God and not being a shadow of who he meant for you to be as a woman or as a man. And when Jesus said, "I am the light," when he shines that light into your soul, when you see the love and the grace, that light helps you to be more of who you are rather than living as a shadow of a person. And I do think as far as gender distinctions, I think that's why there are young men today that are confused, just in turmoil because they're not allowed to be the men, like you said, to say, "No, I put my foot down. You're not allowed to have a gun." Well, if that's what he needed, then that is a woman wouldn't think, maybe, maybe not to have a gun because the protection is in a different way for a woman.
Kurt Bjorklund: But even to that point, submission does not mean if you were against the gun that you just say, "Okay."
Kay Warheit: Well, that's true.
Kurt Bjorklund: Because if you're really against the gun, then you should have an ongoing conversation and challenge and push and-
Kay Warheit: And why do you have that fear? Why are you against it? What's is your background? Not just this is what it is and that's the way it's going to be.
Emily DeAngelo: And Matt did listen to me, by the way. Don't want to sound like I'm smearing his name.
Kurt Bjorklund: Not at all.
Emily DeAngelo: He did listen. But it's also, it was. It was a deep seated need for him. That's one way that he feels like he can protect our home, which is interesting. But I'm still struggling with that one. But yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, and there are churches that take different positions and sometimes it becomes enough of an issue for some people that they say, this is a matter of conviction and a reason to change a church. And we certainly understand that and don't feel like that's a bad choice if that's what somebody makes. We do our best to honor the text as best we understand it and say that's how we want to live.
Kurt Bjorklund: So in our church we get kind of criticized from both sides. We get it from people who say, "I can't believe that you have women who will sometimes teach in a mixed group." "I can't believe that you have women on your board." "I can't believe all the women on the ministry team." And then we'll get it from other people who say, "How could you have male elders? How could you?" And I'm comfortable with that because I think the scripture is clear that there's some distinction, but it's clear that women and men were both engaged in ministry at a very high level in leadership. And so we want to be a church that practices both of those things. That says there's some distinction. We're not sure we have it perfectly figured out, but we want to somehow honor that. But we also want to have a both genders fully present.
Kay Warheit: And we're in a church where we can have this discussion. It's not put down. It's not ignored. It's not stifled. We're free to have this discussion and then to grow in that understanding.
Kurt Bjorklund: And there are some issues in the church that you can say, "Well, we can all just have different positions and not take a functional position." This is one where there has to be a functional position because at the end of the day, you'll either have certain things or you won't. But again, I think it's unfortunate because it focuses our mind on the negative side of it rather than saying, "What's positively being communicated here? What's at stake?"
Kurt Bjorklund: So well, thank you for taking the time to be here. Thank you for taking the time to make this part of your day. And you can send all your followup questions to Kay Warheit at Orchard Hill Church, or askapastoratOrchardHillChurch.com and we'll be happy to address them on a coming episode episode. And we'll actually, when I say that, we really are happy to address the actual questions around our issues because we do want to address real things, not just to put them to the side. So thanks. Have a great day. Thanks for listening.
