Ask a Pastor Ep. 72 - Spiritual Warfare, Satan's Power, Religion vs. Faith
Episode Description
This episode Senior Pastor, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, talks with Director of Men's Ministry, Mike Hatch, about the topic of spiritual warfare, the power that Satan has, and the difference between religion and faith.
Episode Transcript
Kurt Bjorklund: Hi, welcome. Today I'm joined by Mike Hatch. Mike is one of our Life Stage pastors, and also helps to oversee some of our men's ministry. Welcome Mike.
Mike Hatch: Thanks. Good to be here again.
Kurt Bjorklund: Today on Ask a Pastor, we're going to address several questions that you have sent in as listeners, so if you have questions, please send them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com. We'll be happy to address them on a future podcast, and an episode of Ask a Pastor. Mike, here's a question, and this is about spiritual warfare. The person writes in and says, "The idea that there is evil and good forces acting on us at all times, attempting to affect our decision-making as well as our actions, whose effects ripple out into the world with negative and positive outcomes. When this comes up in social conversations, how do you react and discuss it without sounding crazy?" The idea here is they're saying, spiritual forces, most people in our culture probably say, "I don't know if there's Satan on one shoulder and an angel on the other. Demon and an angel." How do I, first, how do you see that? Then really, how do you interact with that or encourage people to interact?
Mike Hatch: Yeah, I love that question because you're right that most people, we are so over-reliant or dependent on that empirical data or scientific proof. You can't read an article today anywhere, without, asserting anything, without first having a foundation of scientific study or something like that. I think we're so dependent on our senses, that to think outside of that is hard for us to do it, to accept the fact that there's a spiritual realm. But the Bible does talk about a spiritual realm, for sure, that's happening in the background. It may be that we can't perceive. It's funny because there's a book that I read once called, Inevitable. It's understanding the 12 technological forces that will shape our future, by a guy named Kevin Kelly. He's a futurist, humanist kind of guy. But he, one of the things he asserts in the book, is he talks about how it's really hard through the internet to define truth sometimes. He gets to this one statement where he says, "96% of all matter and energy in our universe is outside of our vision."
Mike Hatch: He actually, he searched the fact that that we don't know a vast majority of what makes up reality, actually. So, I'm actually grateful that we have the Bible, which actually can serve as our standard, and tell us the truth about some of these things that seem outside of our ability to conceive. I think, first of all, we need to acknowledge this backdrop of uncertainty, and our own ignorance in the midst of it. I will say that normally, as I talk to someone who may not have that biblical perspective, and might think, I would personally, I think bring up the fact that there's a lot that we don't know. To say that something is, isn't reality altogether can actually be more arrogant in a sense, an I don't say it that way to the person.
Kurt Bjorklund: No, that's right. I get that.
Mike Hatch: But. Then then to maybe consider the fact that something may be there, you know? Yeah, the Bible talks about a spiritual realm for sure, filled with angels and demons and cherubim. Ephesians 6, I'll just bring this up real quick. Talks about the battle that's being fought behind the scenes, and the spiritual forces that are at work, that our battle is not just between flesh and blood but between the spiritual forces at work. But then the Bible also goes on to tell us that to combat that is not necessarily, and this is where I think sometimes we get off, is I think oftentimes there are certain folks who make that spiritual battle, how do I say this? All encompassing. When in actuality, and there is a certain amount that it affects us greatly, but the solution that Jesus and scripture gives us is more simplistic than I think we understand.
Mike Hatch: I think we twist it in a lot of ways to make it bigger than it than it should be. But Ephesians, Paul talks about the armor of God, putting on the armor of God, understanding the truth of God, standing firm with that truth buckled around our waist. For example, the breastplate of righteousness, which has to do with who we are in Christ, through what he's done for us. And it goes onto the different elements of that, which actually come back to our faith in Christ, and knowing that God is all-powerful, and we should trust him with whatever happens in that realm. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's my, yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay. For somebody to explain that without sounding crazy, you just say, consider that it might be just as arrogant to take the other view that there is nothing.
Mike Hatch: Yeah. Yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay.
Mike Hatch: And to remember that we are a product of, still today, the age of enlightenment, and this idea that that we depend so much on our senses.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. Well, one thing I would add to that is, I think sometimes it's healthy to say, "I don't have to share everything that I believe in every context." What I mean by that is simply to say, "There's some people who won't understand or appreciate your view." So, you're not being disingenuous just to say, "You know what, I don't need to spend time." In fact, there's a text, I think it's Luke where it says, "Don't cast your pearls before swine." The idea of it is not to take what's precious and give it to people who really won't appreciate its value. I think that can even be seen as a biblical idea at some point to say, "You know what? It's okay for me to say I see this and believe it." They may not, I don't need to convince them of anything.
Kurt Bjorklund: Now I'm not saying that there isn't a time to wade into it because it might be an opportunity to present something that's true. But just like to a child, you don't always share everything with a child.
Mike Hatch: You start with where they are.
Kurt Bjorklund: That's right. Then you move forward, and some of the spiritual truths that are maybe more challenging to our modern culture to say, "Oh, I can wait to share those rather than having to lead with those.", I think is a step of prudence ultimately.
Mike Hatch: I totally agree. Yeah, definitely.
Kurt Bjorklund: Okay, so this is in the same vein. It's about Satan's power. Can Satan be in more than one place at a time? It seems as though people generally feel that whether praying silently or aloud, Satan can hear their thoughts. He's not all-knowing, yet he's commonly treated as though he is. I'm not sure exactly what the question here is, but other than can you just opine, or maybe not opine, but tell us what scripture says about Satan?
Mike Hatch: Yeah, definitely. First of all, Satan is a creation of God. He is one of God's created beings, number one. That in and of itself means he's not God, he's not omnipotent, he doesn't know everything. He's not all-present. He's not present everywhere like God is. There are big, distinguishing differences there, we need to remember about Satan in terms of that. First Peter 5:7, is what I, where I went to immediately when I first thought of this, when I first saw this question. It says, it talks about how actually no, this is not, yeah, Oh sorry. 5:8, my fault. It says, "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him by standing firm in the faith because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings."
Mike Hatch: Now, I do think number one, that this analogy to, again comparing Satan to another created being that is prowling around, I think it actually speaks again more to the fact that he's prowling around, which means he might be over here or he might be over here, but he's not necessarily everywhere. I think sometimes Satan is referred to though in light of, where the term Satan, in light of the greater demonic, if you will, activity that's happening. Satan, along with demons who are fallen angels, again, created beings of God, are all working together in some way, shape, or form to sabotage God's redemptive purposes. We need to remember that.
Mike Hatch: But Satan himself is definitely a created being, definitely within the confines of being a created being, is not all powerful. But you're right. Often in our culture, people will talk about Satan as if like, the classic, the devil made me do it thing. Often going that way. It's interesting because I've found that, not that I, how do I say it, it's not that I dismiss Satan altogether, but I have enough issues dealing with my own sin, which will sabotage me in my relationship with God. So, while I acknowledge Satan, I almost feel like sometimes we need to focus in some sense on more about, depending on Christ for the sake of our own sin that they could [inaudible 00:09:42]
Kurt Bjorklund: Well it's, you can fall into one of two extremes here. One is, Satan's responsible for everything, and the other is Satan's responsible for nothing. Yes, it's true that Satan is not omnipresent like God. So Satan can't be harassing you at your house and me at my house simultaneously.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: But that shouldn't give us a false, that that should just be helpful in saying he's a localized being as opposed to an omnipresent being, which is true of God. But his demons do function. So, sometimes when we use the word Satan or the devil, we're using it as a blanket term for his minions, his demons.
Mike Hatch: Yes. That's right.
Kurt Bjorklund: If I say something like, "Well, I really felt like Satan was attacking this week.", or something. That can be a true statement, even though if I step back and think about it, what I mean is Satan's legions are, have been at work, and there are spiritual forces and usually they come in waves that are under the radar. In fact, I think it is it James 3, that that says something that's really profound in my estimation, not that all of scripture isn't profound. Have to be careful how I say that. Makes it sound like there's just one scripture, but it says this, "But if you harbor ..." This is Verse 14. "If you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such wisdom does not come from heaven, but is earthly, un-scriptural and demonic." What that's almost saying is that is that when you're in strife with somebody, when you have unhealthy ambition, in other words, an ambition to say, "I want to be made much of, I want them to be put in their place, I want this to be ..."
Kurt Bjorklund: Like when there's tension, that somewhere in that tension somebody has given themselves over to the demonic control, and not control as in possession or anything. I'm not talking about that, but I mean they've allowed that influence to become part of their thinking. That's really where we see this come to fruition, is it's in our thinking. So whether you ever tab it to Satan, demons or just to, I had a thought, but what the Bible doesn't shy away from is, even your human-disrupted relationships are a lack of spiritual discernment at some level in that. The Bible is very clear about that. But I think we can refer to Satan in those ways. Yet it's helpful to say, "But he's localized. He's not all-powerful." And this question talked about knowing thoughts.
Mike Hatch: Yeah. Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: I think that's an important thing to just mention. That is, I don't believe that Satan knows thoughts.
Mike Hatch: Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: Because he's not omniscient. He's not in your head, knowing what you think. So he can only, Satan or demons can only respond to what you are doing or acting on. Now, that doesn't mean they can't influence your thoughts, but that, I mean, television commercials influence my thoughts. I mean, we're being influenced all the time, but I think that that's an important thing.
Mike Hatch: Do you think there's overlap between, the people being afraid to speak those words that Satan might hear it, and the word faith thing. I'm just curious if there's some connection there.
Kurt Bjorklund: I'm sure there is. So some people who say, "Well I don't want to say something that that gives Satan an opportunity in this and that."
Mike Hatch: Yeah, right.
Kurt Bjorklund: But again, I look at it and say, "You say what you want to say, because at the end of the day ... " Some people say, "I don't want to ever speak a word of doubt. I don't want to give Satan an opportunity."
Mike Hatch: Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, I think Jesus said, "Even the demons doubt." Not Jesus, James did. Jesus didn't say that. James did. I want to attribute that correctly. The point I'm saying is that saying something that, where you express what's true for you is not giving Satan some grand opportunity as much as it's saying, "I'm acknowledging." In fact, you might be giving Satan a better opportunity by denying what's real for you, and acting like I don't have an issue with this, and pretending rather than saying "I'm not sure how this works." I referenced this in a message a while ago. There was a lady who some time ago said to me, she had been diagnosed with cancer and she had managed to tell me this without actually telling me that she had cancer or using the word.
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: I said, "Oh, so how long have you had the cancer?" I said something like that. And she's like, "Shh, don't say the word.", as if somehow the word itself had a spell over her and she was not an Orchard Hill person, so you don't try to figure out who it is.
Mike Hatch: It's tricky because you can easily tip over into superstition in a sense.
Kurt Bjorklund: Absolutely.
Mike Hatch: Which is another subtle way I think we can try to take control ourselves.
Kurt Bjorklund: Or you end up not just superstition, but again, you can abdicate personal responsibility. If I've been influenced by demonic forces here, then I have no power. I have no control. I don't think the Bible ever teaches us that we're out of control.
Mike Hatch: Yep.
Kurt Bjorklund: Obviously, you can spin that different ways because God's word is, and God is the ultimate control. But even that, hyper- reformed thinking can lead somebody to say, "Well God must foreordained that I do this. So therefore." Again, it takes us out of responsibility and control, and the Bible is big on responsibility. So.
Mike Hatch: Yep.
Kurt Bjorklund: How, and this another question here, Mike. How do you separate religion from faith? How much Christianity is about rule- following and how much is just a personal relationship with Christ? How do you respond to someone who says they're anti-religion due to the perception that there are just too many rules and regulations?
Mike Hatch: I love this question because ... I think it's funny, we saw this play out on YouTube, for example, on social media, and I'm forgetting the guy's name right now, who did the video that went viral about, not being about religion but it being about a personal relationship with Christ. Then you see a Catholic priest who responded to that saying, "No, wait a second. Religion is valid." I think there is this tension there because I think that when we talk about Christianity not being religion, and that it's this relationship with Christ, there's a larger context with regard to that, that it comes from. Okay. I think some people aren't as aware of that. That is that, honestly I think some of the roots date back to the reformation, where Luther really pushed against this, the dogmatic, maybe that's the wrong word for it, or the legalistic aspects of faith, and putting our faith in those verses putting our faith in the finished work of Christ. So, religion isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself.
Mike Hatch: In fact, going back to James, we've referenced James a lot, but James 1:27, it says, "Religion, that God, our father accepts as pure and faultless is this. To look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." So there's, in a sense, religion affirmed here. You know what I mean? In that sense. But I think what we're doing when we say that it's not about religion, is we're trying to separate, and reaffirm the fact that it's about faith in Christ, and what he is doing in us versus anything we can do to earn our standing before God.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, that's well put. You're absolutely right. It's, again, this can cut both ways. If the statement is about saying don't get caught up in rule-following because you'll never follow all the rules, and it's ultimately about what Jesus has done, not how well you keep the rules. Great statement.
Mike Hatch: Yep.
Kurt Bjorklund: But sometimes what people mean when they say something like that is, "Hey, it's not about the rules, so we can just jettison the rules as long as I am cool with Jesus." The point of the law, and in fact sometimes people will say this in the law, I'm using it in the sense that the Bible talks about a law, like the 10 commandments and even other things that became clear instruction from this text. A right view of the law is not the law goes away. It's that the law is so high, and so demanding that I need Jesus, not me, in order to meet it. So, when people want to get rid of rules, it's actually the wrong impulse, unless they're human-made rules. If I'm making rules about the rules, then that that's human-made religion. Keep it. But, but if I'm saying "I want to get rid of the 10 commandments or I want to get rid of the clear instruction of scripture.", that's not the gospel message either.
Kurt Bjorklund: The gospel messages is, there are standards, and they are so intense that you will not meet them. Therefore, you need a savior, and so I'm always cautious when people want to say, "Hey, it's just about following Jesus or something" Here's another one that's popular today. The red letter only kind of thinking, where it says I'm a red letter Christian. What they mean by that is there's some versions of the Bible that put the words of Christ in red. They'll say, "Well, those are really the key teachings. Everything else is secondary." What they're saying is, "I don't like some of the new, the later New Testament stuff that seems to be more culturally offensive and arbitrary. So, I just choose to take the red letters." But again, what they're doing in a sense is saying, "I don't like a bunch of the standards, so I'm going to get rid of them and just choose these standards because I like these standards. These, everyone can agree on. Let's just get rid of the other stuff." To me that seems to have a two-tiered inerrancy and authority of the scripture that misses something.
Mike Hatch: Yeah, he'd asked, "How do we respond to those who say they're anti-religion?" It's interesting in the question that he says that, or she says that, but so what is anti-religion? Is that anti-church? Is that anti-community? Is that anti-denominational affiliation? I don't think that's necessarily the heart of Christ, that we be ... Like you said, we're throwing out some very legitimate things to try to ... In fact, the more that gets close to heresy is when you focus in on one thing so much, that becomes the only thing at the expense of, the rest of, the whole of the good of what God is calling us to.
Kurt Bjorklund: No, that's good. Well, Mike, thank you. Again, if you have questions you can send them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com. We'll be happy to address them. Thank you for spending part of your day here. Have a great day.
