Ask a Pastor Ep. 79 - Can Christians Use Marijuana?
Welcome to Ask a Pastor, a podcast from Orchard Hill Church! Have you ever had a question about the Bible, Faith, or Christianity as a whole? Submit your question and one of our pastors will answer on the program. New episodes every Wednesday.
This episode, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, Joel Haldeman and Mike Hatch sit down to have a conversation about the topic of marijuana usage, if Christians should use it and what the bible has to say about being not being mastered by anything.
Mentioned in the Podcast
The Hidden Life - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5827916/
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527338/
Solo: A Star Wars Story - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3778644/
1917 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8579674/
USA Today Article - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/12/15/weed-psychosis-high-thc-cause-suicide-schizophrenia/4168315002/
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Podcast Transcript
Joel Haldeman: Welcome to the Ask a Pastor podcast. We're going to jump into some really fun, interesting questions today. If you have questions that you'd like to have answered, send them into askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com.
Joel Haldeman: Mike, I ran into-
Mike Hatch: Joel.
Joel Haldeman: -you in the men's room of a movie theater recently.
Mike Hatch: Yes we did. That's right.
Joel Haldeman: What did you see?
Mike Hatch: I saw the movie, A Hidden Life.
Joel Haldeman: Oh, I just saw you post about this.
Mike Hatch: Yes. And it was incredible. It was incredible. The Gospel Coalition had wrote about and they'll put out like movie recommendations and that was one of them in reading and I thought, Oh man, I really want to I want to check that out. And so yeah, got to see that and wait, actually no, I'm wrong.
Kurt Bjorklund: He goes to the movie so often.
Mike Hatch: I went twice.
Joel Haldeman: Right.
Mike Hatch: Because we saw each other at the AMC in McCandless, right?
Joel Haldeman: Yep.
Mike Hatch: Nevermind. That was Star Wars.
Joel Haldeman: But we were in the same theater.
Mike Hatch: I was wondering.
Joel Haldeman: What did you think? Have you seen this?
Kurt Bjorklund: I have seen Star Wars.
Joel Haldeman: The new one?
Kurt Bjorklund: Yes.
Mike Hatch: Okay. Okay. Okay. If I'm honest, I mean it's Star Wars, so I enjoy it just because it's Star Wars. But I feel like they rushed through the plot. I feel like it was a sprint through the story, if I'm honest. You almost could take it and make more than one movie out of it, maybe. To me it felt a little bit, yeah-
Joel Haldeman: Interesting. The Han Solo movie that came out, like in terms of how that movie unfolded, it was like such a disappointment to me. It's like let's spend 45 minutes running down this subplot that is actually going to turn out to be a complete waste of time.
Mike Hatch: I heard about that actually. I heard about the Han Solo movie.
Joel Haldeman: You haven't seen it?
Mike Hatch: No, I haven't.
Joel Haldeman: I totally just ruined it.
Mike Hatch: No, I know. I hadn't seen it.
Kurt Bjorklund: Spoiler alert.
Joel Haldeman: That's on you though. That's been out for like a year. Yeah. Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: So I'm going to date myself a little here. So I was a kid when this stuff first started coming out and I never saw them and so there was all the Star Wars hoopla and I just missed it. I was just like, ah, whatever. And I don't know, but just didn't see them and I wasn't ... We didn't really go to movies a ton. It wasn't that we had an ethical reason not to, just life just didn't go to movies. And so, so then I started watching them with my kids and I've just never fully comprehended why people love it, to be honest. It's okay. I mean, I watched it, I watched it with my kids because it was a family event. But just to be honest, I don't get the fascination. It's like, like yeah.
Mike Hatch: That's so funny.
Kurt Bjorklund: I got this little droid thing running around and you know, Chewy, who can talk. It's like, I don't know.
Joel Haldeman: I think that, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think that like when the movies first came out in what the 70s is that-
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Joel Haldeman: They were so groundbreaking in like the production that people latched onto it. And then, you know, in my family, my parents owned, we didn't own a lot of movies, but they owned those movies. And so-
Kurt Bjorklund: You watched them.
Joel Haldeman: When they came out, not the same ones that ... When the next set came out, I went with my family to see those in theaters. Like it was a non negotiable, this is what we do. And then ever since then, I've seen all of them and I don't go to movie theaters a lot. I've seen all of them in theaters with my son and it's almost like, when the scrolling text begins, I have this emotional-
Mike Hatch: Yes, connection. I know what you're feeling.
Kurt Bjorklund: It spans the generation.
Mike Hatch: Exactly.
Kurt Bjorklund: Totally, that's true. Yeah. Because the people who are my age and have kids that age, you too, you grew up with a memory of the first set. And then now you experienced the second set with your kids and that same thing. Yeah. Kind of for me, except I didn't experience it first time.
Mike Hatch: You would appreciate A Hidden Life much more than you would Star Wars.
Joel Haldeman: Okay. I've heard from somebody else about how great that movie is.
Mike Hatch: Oh my gosh. It's incredible. It really-
Kurt Bjorklund: Give us a spoiler alert.
Mike Hatch: Well, Oh well he dies. There's your spoiler alert. It's a true story. So you can look this guy up on Wikipedia. A guy named Franz Jagerstatter, he was a peasant farmer in Austria and their little farming town was recruited by the Nazis, of course, eventually to fight in World War II with them. And he was like, when the only ones in his town to stand up and say, no, this is wrong. I don't believe in what Hitler's doing. Refused to vow his allegiance to Hitler and then suffered mightily for it. His whole family suffered. And it was all very faith-based. I mean, it came from the conviction of his faith that he couldn't do that. And he talks to different priests even to get their perspective on it.
Mike Hatch: And it's amazing to see how these priests were like, no, you got to do what the Homeland is asking you to do. And other priests were just scared to say to do it because they didn't want to out themselves. Yeah. And he got imprisoned, tortured, eventually beheaded. But it's a story of-
Kurt Bjorklund: That's a true spoiler alert.
Mike Hatch: Yeah, I know. It was, sorry. But yeah, but to see his family and the significance of his decision to do that on his family, his three kids, the whole thing. It's the town is, it's compelling.
Joel Haldeman: Wow. Interesting.
Kurt Bjorklund: Either of you see 1917?
Mike Hatch: No, I want to see that. That one looks good.
Kurt Bjorklund: That was really good.
Mike Hatch: Oh, so you saw it already. Okay. Yeah.
Kurt Bjorklund: By the time everyone else hears this, it won't be already, but yes. And yeah, it was really good. It was definitely their whole thing was they made it look like it was all single camera shot.
Joel Haldeman: That's amazing.
Kurt Bjorklund: So just the sheer way it was shot was stunning. And I guess they had a lot of computer generated backgrounds and things because it was just like going through a wasteland. The story itself was good, but there were some poignant moments where the exchange of a life for another sacrificial atonement. Not in Christian terms, but in human terms, and it just reminded me of how compelling that story is because you watch it and you say, "That's beautiful.", and at the same time it's horrific, and yet that's the gospel and so it was, it was right there in that movie for anybody who would say all stories are tied back to the great story.
Mike Hatch: That's exactly right. Every, in fact, I just did a presentation of one of our events here on how to interpret film through the gospel lens, and every story is telling the creation fall, redemption story, but it, without the same definitions, without the same meaning actually put into some of those words as we see them through the gospel of Christ.
Joel Haldeman: That's incredible. Yeah. On Christmas Eve, I used the illustration from a Wonder Woman. There was this moment, it was like, well, that person's so gets it. It's so cool. But anyway, we should get onto our subject at hand.
Kurt Bjorklund: Movie reviews with Joel, Mike and Kurt.
Joel Haldeman: To toke or not to toke. That is the question.
Mike Hatch: That's a great question.
Joel Haldeman: Or which is worse? Weed or whiskey. Those were my two starting questions that I want them to know. Okay. So yeah, this is something where my opinion has changed pretty significantly over the years and it all started with a stuff you should know podcast that I listened to about a year ago and obviously, a generation ago, our country's perspective towards weed was very different than it is today. And this is going to be something that especially, more and more the church is going to have to come to terms with, if this becomes legalized in our state and in our country. Laying it out, first of all, it is illegal in Pennsylvania to possess weed. It's illegal by both by the state and the federal government.
Mike Hatch: And just for those who are ignorant, you're talking about the actual rolled Doobie that you would smoke.
Joel Haldeman: Doobie, Cheech.
Mike Hatch: Not the CBD oil or the other derivatives of-
Joel Haldeman: CBD oil is, I think, a totally different thing.
Kurt Bjorklund: Now, if somebody is not aware with, doobie or something, do you have some other title?
Joel Haldeman: I sure hope so.
Mike Hatch: We can talk about mowing the lawn.
Kurt Bjorklund: That somebody would know what this is.
Joel Haldeman: Refer maybe Mary Jane.
Mike Hatch: Yes, yes.
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah.
Joel Haldeman: I can't listen to that song the same way anymore. Like I used to really like the song, Last Dance with Mary Jane and then Tom petty died from a drug overdose. And so every time I hear the song it's like he had his last dance.
Mike Hatch: It ruins it.
Joel Haldeman: And it totally ruins the song. It doesn't ruin the song. The song was ruined about celebrating the drug culture. Right. It just makes it very real. So yeah, in any case, we're going to set aside the fact that it is illegal to have weed, but because states are beginning to legalize it, the question at hand is, is it okay for a Christian to consume weed in some way, whether that's smoking it, eating it, and yeah. So let's jump in. What do you think, Mike?
Mike Hatch: Yes, it's okay.
Joel Haldeman: Okay. Yeah. You got any?
Mike Hatch: I was just going to say bottom line and again, I think when it comes to the gospel, we have to remember we are not saved by what we do and don't do. It's what God has done for us. But, so by saying that, I can also say I think a Christian who's a believer, who is saved could potentially murder somebody. Now I know that's a different-
Kurt Bjorklund: That's a different podcast.
Mike Hatch: Yeah, right. It's a whole different podcast. But they could smoke cigarettes, they could drink alcohol, they could even get drunk.
Joel Haldeman: So when you say it's okay, you're saying it's not going to condemn you to hell.
Mike Hatch: Correct.
Joel Haldeman: Okay. So my question is, does God see that as something that is acceptable for a Christian to do? Can you glorify God while you're smoking weed?
Mike Hatch: Yeah. Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: And so is that a yes or is that a yeah. Yes, that I get the question.
Mike Hatch: I get the question. Yeah. Because sometimes I think we often try to draw lines and, and try to decide, okay, I might enjoy this or this might be interesting to me. So am I allowed to do it? Can I draw the line here or does the line need to be pushed back? Or like where we're is and sometimes we'll push to get kind of what we want more than submit to God's will in something. So first of all, let me just say this is more complicated a question than just a yes or no. I think there's a lot of gray here with regard to this. You know, gosh, I know people who have smoked marijuana in a medicinal sense, for example. And it's helped them tremendously physically from health things too. Personally no, I've never smoked marijuana but I've smoked cigarettes before in my past, done different kinds of like chew or tobacco products or whatever. I just don't, being health conscious, I don't want to fill my lungs with smoke of any kind, whether that's from reefer, whether that's from a cigarette, whether it's from a burning building, I just don't want smoke in my lungs. That's me personally.
Joel Haldeman: But let's admit that smoke, like that's a sort of, besides the point, right. Cause you can buy pot brownies. Like I would guess that there's just as much pot in states where it's legal that is consumed, edibles than is smoked.
Mike Hatch: Yep. So, okay. I was going to hold off on this about bringing this out right away just to kind of, because I, there's a passage of scripture that came to me as we were talking about this topic or we're thinking about what we're going to talk about with this topic. And Ephesians chapter five came to my mind, especially verses 15 through 21 and it says this and this is, well yeah just read it says, pay careful attention then to, Oh and this is the HCSB version.
Joel Haldeman: All right, Mike. You and your HCSB, whatever.
Mike Hatch: The Home and Christian. Pay careful attention then to how you live. Not as unwise people but as wise, making the most of the time because the days are evil. Okay, now and I'm going to read on, but just there for that moment. The days are evil so we have to be careful with what we're doing and what we give ourselves to, what we consume even. So don't be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is and don't get drunk with wine which leads to reckless living, but be filled by the spirit speaking to one another in Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making music, et cetera. Giving thanks always for everything to God the father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and then submitting to one another in the fear of Christ.
Mike Hatch: Now this obviously is referencing wine and drinking specifically and not to get drunk and I think you could apply this to other things too, like potentially getting high as well. I think we need to, as Christians, I take, it says to be filled with the spirit versus being filled with wine. And so I think there is a sense in which, what is our purpose or what is our motive of consuming marijuana in whatever form it is.
Mike Hatch: You know what I mean? And are we in that sense, are we being careful? Are we being sensitive to the spirit knowing that when it says the days are evil, I think what it's saying is I think it's really easy to be swayed. It's really easy to be overtaken in a sense by our own sinful nature, without even realizing it. And, and so, yeah. So I think there's a strong word of caution here toward that that I think can be applied. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think can be applied as well to marijuana.
Joel Haldeman: Tell him if he's wrong.
Kurt Bjorklund: I want to hear your take.
Joel Haldeman: I mean I, my take is that it is probably not sinful. If we're okay consuming alcohol, I have a hard time seeing that as being different. And in some of the reading that I've done about this, I've actually come to feel as though alcohol is potentially way more destructive in our culture than weed is, or Mary Jane.
Mike Hatch: Yeah, good. I almost said Mary Jane too, [crosstalk 00:15:43] .
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, I was just not as hip as you guys.
Joel Haldeman: Mary Jane. That's not hip.
Kurt Bjorklund: I don't have all these synonyms down.
Joel Haldeman: How old was Tom Petty?
Kurt Bjorklund: Oh, he's older than me. So you know.
Mike Hatch: And not, because I do want to hear Kurt, I want to hear you have to say. But that's a good point though, that I don't know. You probably did more reading than me on that specific, that alcohol has caused more damage in a sense than marijuana. I didn't, that would make sense to me, honestly. It would make sense. And maybe that's also admitting ignorance because I haven't smoken it, experienced it myself. I may, my own bias may be that like, Ooh, fearful of the unknown in terms of that. It's dangerous. You know what I mean? So that, that I got to admit that and put that on the table.
Joel Haldeman: And I will say that, that's exactly where I was before listening to that podcast, that in my mind, and again, 20 years ago, our culture as a whole attitude towards marijuana was very different than it is today. And maybe that was my, you know, growing up in sort of a, I don't want to say it wasn't legalistic, but it was a Christian culture that was higher on rules that emphasize discipline. The Anabaptist was the tradition. And so maybe that was just part of my background and even like when my wife and I started drinking for the first time, like we were like real strict, put a lot of parameters around ourselves and yeah. So I mean, some of what I've come to understand about marijuana is that alcohol kills 88,000 people a year.
Joel Haldeman: And of the 88,000, it's something like 33 will die every year simply from drinking too much alcohol and they die like-
Mike Hatch: Alcohol poisoning.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah. Overdose poisoning. And the rest of that number, 30 to 88, what is that, 55?
Mike Hatch: Yeah.
Joel Haldeman: Will die from getting in a vehicle, doing something violent or just the long-term health effects of drinking too much. And so the number, when you compare that to marijuana is, well it's unknown. It's unknown in terms of the long-term effects because this has been illegal and it's hard to study it long-term. But the number in terms of people getting into a car and crashing, killing somebody is pretty close to zero as far as I understand. And it is impossible to smoke enough weed in one setting to kill yourself. So, those are the ways that I've compared. What do you got?
Kurt Bjorklund: Well I did do a little prep on this. So just for clarity sake, I have never set sail with the 420. I've never had a blind so [crosstalk 00:18:49], so I'm not experienced with this personally. Biblically. I think, Mike, your point was well-taken that that drunkenness and being high are probably somewhat equated. I think that's a fair thing to say. If it's clear that the Bible says you shouldn't be drunk, then it's probably fine to say taking something that alters your state of decision-making function is probably not appropriate for a Christian. So I would say that is a starting point as something to be wise about and to say, that's probably sinful so and so I would say that's not okay. Like I would say getting drunk before God is not okay. Wouldn't send you to hell, but it's not in God's best.
Kurt Bjorklund: Here's the verse that I think is probably most significant. This is First Corinthians 6:12 says, I have the right to do anything you say, but not everything is beneficial. I have the right to do anything, but I will not be mastered by anything. And the reason I say that's most influential is not because I'm saying it's beneficial or not beneficial or I'm saying it's right or wrong. But I think sometimes we ask the wrong question and that is, is this okay?
Mike Hatch: Right.
Kurt Bjorklund: And that's not ultimately the best question. The best question is, is this beneficial? Will this master me? And certainly there's research and anecdotal evidence to people saying, "Hey, I've gone down this path and I haven't had negative impacts." And I think that's true, but you can always find anecdotes on either side. There is some concern about it being a gateway drug, which I think is real. And having sat with people have become addicted to drugs, visited people in drug rehab centers, known families where that's ravaged their family, I would be very cautious just quickly saying, "Oh yeah, it's no big deal" as I would with alcohol because alcohol ravages lives also when left unchecked. And so I think in a culture of saying, Hey, we don't want to restrict what the Bible doesn't restrict. So in that sense, I would say, I don't want to say, Oh, you should never, but I also don't want to be unaware that some things have real dangers and therefore that's an issue.
Kurt Bjorklund: Now, having said that, the slippery slope argument, you shouldn't have one drink, cause you might become an alcoholic is not a good argument. Saying I might smoke that once and then it's a gateway drug. But I think there always has to be an awareness if you even start down a path of saying there are people who never intended to end in a place, who ended up in place where they were mastered by something and it destroyed their lives. And so don't take that decision lightly or as a trifle.
Mike Hatch: Right. And that's been my experience too, by the way, just as I've dealt with people who have talked about their use of marijuana, that it seems to have an effect on them, that it does master them and it provides this escape from reality or a deadening of feelings, maybe they didn't want to feel or something to that effect where they're escaping and it caused them to become, and this is them telling me this, it just caused them to be lazy. That they lost their purpose. They feel like they've lost direction in their lives because of that, what's the word? Kind of almost causing them to be lazier in some way. So again, that's stuff I've heard, but again that I haven't tried it myself. So anyway, go ahead.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well I just looked for a couple articles just because I didn't know some of the things that are happening with this. This was in the USA Today, January or December 15th, 2019 so just the end of last year. And let me just read a part of this because, and it starts, well let me not read this first part. It starts with an anecdote of somebody who basically started down this path and he was a baseball player and he was vaping THC, the ingredient in marijuana to makes people feel high and stay up all night. And he'd swing wildly. He ended up with what they called psychotic disorder unspecified. And his parents had to be called and it's a cannabis-induced psychosis. And what this article goes on to argue is that there are a lot of medical people now, in the states where it's been approved, that have come out and said we are seeing an incredible uptick in people coming into the emergency rooms with a medical condition from cannabis use, that is psychosis causing them not to function. The Attorney Generals come out saying that there are bigger health issues.
Joel Haldeman: Interesting.
Kurt Bjorklund: Then what we have been told and they are kind of saying ... People are coming back on the other side and saying, no. And so my point, and if you Google it, you can find this article. I thought this was pretty interesting. It's USA Today, Is Marijuana Linked to Psychosis and Schizophrenia, is what it's called. And basically there's a growing number of medical professionals who are saying absolutely and be careful because this is not the inane substance that you think it is. Now again, having said that, there's a split opinion. Without a doubt, there are people in the medical profession who will say the complete opposite. My point would simply be to say, besides the not being mastered by anything principle, there also needs to be a wise principal.
Kurt Bjorklund: You know, we talked just a little bit about alcohol. My understanding of alcohol is that there's a tipping point on drinks and your liver, even if you don't get drunk, even if it never leads you to get in a car and drive drunk. Even if you know all of these things, red wines, a little more digestible, but that they're-
Mike Hatch: I'm glad to hear that.
Kurt Bjorklund: If you have, well, I mean just from a medical professional, but if you drink hard liquor on a consistent basis, it impacts your liver, period. And so at some point there's a wisdom piece of that. Now having said that, you drink diet Coke nonstop, it impacts your liver. There's a wisdom piece of that. By the way, I'm off Diet Coke.
Joel Haldeman: I didn't know that.
Kurt Bjorklund: I have gotten off of it.
Mike Hatch: We're not mastered by Diet Coke anymore.
Kurt Bjorklund: To be honest, that's part of why. Is was because I looked at it and I said, why am I letting this be an addiction for me when I know this is harming my body? And so at some point I think you have to ask that question with this as well. And so my overall answer would be to say, I think it's the wrong question to say, is it right or wrong? The question is to say, you know, if it's illegal, I'm not convinced it's permissible. I think altered state is clearly past that. But then the question is being mastered, is this a gateway and then is it wise given that we know so little about its longterm effect on people because it's been underground for so long that it hasn't been treated in the same ways.
Joel Haldeman: And that's, I think, the challenge in all of this is that medical professionals would say that alcohol is linked to depression, right? So I think in the years ahead, we're definitely going to see more and more negative health side effects from marijuana. But that's in part because nobody wanted to admit that they were smoking marijuana because it was illegal and less people were doing it. Whereas today, you know a lot more people consume alcohol than marijuana.
Mike Hatch: Which brings up another, just ... I don't want to take away what you might be taking us here, but just that brings up a question in my mind as Kurt was talking too that, do we buy the argument that, because I've heard this argument before making it legal across the board would be more beneficial than it being illegal because then people weren't forced underground. It can be more open and more known. And I'm just curious about your perspectives because I've heard that argument that like the people say, they've said, I've heard it with other drug, even prostitution, saying make it legal. That way people won't try to hide from it.
Joel Haldeman: I think that the only reason we're having this conversation is because it is being legalized in so many places. And so that's a good question. It's certainly, for the community that consumes it illegally, would it be beneficial to them if it became legal? Maybe, but for probably the majority of people that don't consume marijuana on a regular basis, I think it would just encourage more use of it.
Kurt Bjorklund: So now we're into the issue of policy, public policy, which does tie to this very clearly. So the question I would ask is, is there a drug that should be illegal?
Mike Hatch: Yeah, that's a great question.
Kurt Bjorklund: Because I'm probably tend to lean toward fewer laws and fewer government interactions on a whole. So I'd be more libertarian in some of my own viewpoints in terms of like, I'm not sure that the government should tell us that everyone has to wear a seat belt. You don't want to wear a seat belt and you get in a crash and it costs you your life, that's your choice. I don't know that we need a law for that, as an example. But I think if you say there are some drug that is so destructive to society that we shouldn't legalize it. Now you're just talking about which drugs and even the fact that that, like in drinking, we have a strict drinking driving law because we've recognized there's a clear ... so as a society we said it's okay if you want to get drunk and stay home or have somebody else drive you, but don't and get drunk and drive, because it's hurting the culture and other people when you do.
Kurt Bjorklund: So the question I think with legalizing something like drugs is what is the long-term effect, not just the libertarian side of that and is it wise as a culture to legalize something based on its impact. And I don't know enough about this particular drug to have an answer to that.
Joel Haldeman: I think on the mastered subject, I feel like alcohol is a mastering substance in the same way that I feel that caffeine is a mastering substance. And I ultimately kicked coffee because I hated that every day I woke up and I needed it and if I didn't have coffee, I'd have a headache and I'd be sluggish and if I was someplace where there wasn't coffee, it was like, this whole thing's ruined.
Mike Hatch: Ruins your whole day.
Joel Haldeman: Right, right. And I even tried to, well, anyway, so ultimately kicked caffeine. I feel this way about video games, like when I hit this point in college, I got rid of all the video games that I had and I knew that I couldn't download a single video game to my phone once I got a cell phone, a smartphone, I mean, just because I know how like it just pulls you in and you know, we recently got a Nintendo Switch, so we're playing video games again and again, I feel that it's mastering, like there's so much out there that like, I could put so much time into this.
Joel Haldeman: But anyway, I just don't know. Like when, let me, let me ask you this question. We've drank alcohol together before, right?
Mike Hatch: Yes we have, yeah.
Joel Haldeman: Why do you drink alcohol?
Mike Hatch: Oh man, that's a great question. It's interesting. You know, I've, so in a sense I've developed a taste for it and-
Joel Haldeman: For alcohol?
Mike Hatch: For alcohol, but in the sense that, like for me, I feel like I am participating in a cultural experience, especially now with the new micro brewing kind of movement going on. I think it is really fun to see how many ways and flavors and all sorts of types of different beer that that can be brewed. And that in itself is becoming its own kind of culture in it. And I have found it to be fun to be in that culture. And even if it's just the little tasting glasses, just to taste the different, I may not even have a full glass even. I do at times, but just to me it's more than just the feeling I get when I drink alcohol. There is a loosening inhibitions to an extent. No matter how much alcohol you drink, it's going to happen. That's one of the effects that it has on you and it makes it in some sense more fun to be around people and it loosens you up in maybe that sense. So yeah, that's initially what comes to my mind when you ask that question.
Joel Haldeman: And I appreciate you answering that honestly because I was in a setting a while back where somebody who doesn't drink and we were at a brewery, asked the question, why do you drink? And somebody started going off about like, Oh, I really developed a taste for this type of beer. And then this other guy in the circle was like, it just makes me feel good. And I appreciated like, yeah, if alcohol, my guess is if alcohol didn't have an effect on our bodies and effect on the way that we feel, our inhibitions, I don't think that we drink nearly as much as we do. And yeah, I agree with you that there is a cultural experience of going to different places and experiencing something that was brewed locally, discovering different liquors, or liqueurs and nuances. Like it's, we're on this dry month right now, so no alcohol and I get to this point and we don't really keep soda or sweet beverages other than orange juice in our house. And I get to this point in the evening where it's like I want to mix something up, man. Like I want to like literally I just enjoy like the creative cooking process. I want to throw some stuff together and make a unique flavor, but I just got to admit, if it didn't affect the way I feel, I don't think we would drink.
Mike Hatch: Totally. There are times where if it's been a long week, a long day that I might look forward to having a beer that night and whether it be watching TV or maybe having a beer at dinner or something that there is an effect that it has where it's like, ah, kind of a, Oh, okay. I feel like I've in a sense loosened up and it makes me more open in a sense relatedly, to other people in certain ways too.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Hatch: Makes you forget in some sense to some of your troubles, I guess. Which that's scripture talks about how it does that, but you can take that to an extreme too.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah, and there are certainly, I'd say unhealthy ways of drinking. And what I've found over the past couple of years especially, I've learned a couple things about alcohol. One is that, in me, it actually causes anxiety. Like I can like four to five hours after I drink. I feel this sense of anxiety, not every time, but if it's an anxious point in my life that it really brings that out, but another thing that I noticed is you both know that we started a brewery six months ago or so it opened, and we went through a very long process of preparing that, opening it up. And part of what we were doing was we went around to every single brewery in the Pittsburgh area with our kids most of the time, buying food, trying their drinks.
Joel Haldeman: I think what a lot of people don't realize is that when you get a drink at a brewery, you're not getting a 12-ounce four and a half percent beer, you're, you're getting 16 ounces. And four and a half is kind of like the standard bud light, ABV. But the beer that you're getting at a brewery is usually at least five, at least generally five and a half. Some of those IPAs, are real high and you're getting 16 ounces, not a IPAs. But of other beers, you're getting 16 ounces, which is 33% more. So in that one beer, even in the flight that you're talking about, if you're getting four or five ounce pours, that's 20 ounces of beer. So it ends up being a lot more alcohol that you're consuming than you even realize. And so we have this, chart on our fridge where I actually write down how many drinks that I have in a try to be honest with myself and say, if this is a 16-ounce, five and a half percent beer, this is not one beer, this is much more than that.
Joel Haldeman: And so I just think that we've, as a society, we are medicating ourselves with alcohol and I don't see that as a positive thing. We're drinking more than we should be. Even, I forget whatever document the government puts out about health, for the longest time it said men should not have more than 14 drinks a week.
Kurt Bjorklund: 14?
Joel Haldeman: 14.
Mike Hatch: That's high.
Joel Haldeman: It is high, but then there was some recent studies that have come out that said, if you're having more than 10 a week, you're shortening your lifespan by like a year and a half or something like that.
Kurt Bjorklund: Right. Which, yeah, and that goes back to what we said earlier about is it wise just because it may be permissible. So a question, Joel, for you around this. So as somebody who started a brewery and sees the potential negative effects of alcohol, how do you reconcile being a provider of that service with people who then may drink to excess and unhealthy places.
Joel Haldeman: I'd say in our neighborhood, something like that was desperately needed. Something that was a gathering place, a community space for our neighborhood. I think that the creativity that's involved in crafting something can be part of our God-given joys in life. So I see that as a form of art and pleasure. Alcohol in itself, is not condemned. The Psalms say wine gladdens the heart, which assumes that there's a wine maker someplace. So I don't really have a problem with that. Knowing that people are going to drink to excess, that there's going to be addicts there. I don't want that. But at the same time I know that we're providing something that is good and in some ways beneficial to society. And you know, we've talked about numbers of people that die. The number on people that die in car accidents is significantly, I think it was four, it was in the four hundreds a year. Now vehicles, do we need them? We did okay without them at one point. So they provide something that's good for us despite the fact that there's some drawback. I don't think that's evidence to get rid of it altogether.
Mike Hatch: You just hit on something that I just want to make, I think was interesting. You just brought up pleasure. It's funny because how many people, when you ask why you drink alcohol, how many, like I even felt myself when you asked that question because I went down the road of like, Oh the crafting and it's fun to do it. And then I came to the, oh wait, yeah, I do like it and I enjoy the effects it has on me, but the pleasure, to enjoy something for it to be pleasurable to us, I don't know, is there's something in here with them that we might be struggling with in terms of asceticism. Do you know what I mean? Like,
Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, sure.
Mike Hatch: Because I know that, as a Christian growing up, especially young in a kind of, I felt like a little bit more dogmatic perspective. I defined my faith by what I didn't do or what I was prohibited from. Especially like in high school and middle school and these places where it felt like everybody's partying, everybody's drinking, everybody's doing drugs or all this other stuff. And so I set myself apart by, I don't do these things. These are the things I don't do. Well, what's the other side of the coin? You know what I mean? What's the side that, because I feel like as I look back, man, I wasn't a very good witness about the positive side of what it was like to be in a relationship with Christ. And I think part of that is maturity and just growing up in your faith. But I'm just curious as you say that, like I wonder how many of us kind of spurn pleasure in a sense.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well one of the things I would have said if that question had come all the way back here is, and it's a bit of a cheesy answer, but why do you drink? To the glory of God. And what I mean by that is if God created something and it is not forbidden, it is good and to be enjoyed in its proper context. And just like a good meal, you go out and you eat a good meal or you prepare a good meal that is done to the glory of God. And so I think alcohol can be something that you say, I enjoy this because it's part of the created order and the creative process knowing that, I think again, food can be taken to an extreme. Alcohol can be taken to an extreme, but so there's more danger with it. But that shouldn't take you from the place of being able to say, if I can't do it to the glory of God, then I shouldn't do it. And so yeah, there's other factors with that, but things are given to us to enjoy.
Mike Hatch: I love that because there's a freedom too in that in a sense. But again, it's this, it is interesting because you don't want to be mastered by anything.
Joel Haldeman: Don't let your freedom cause you to get, become a slave.
Mike Hatch: Yes. And don't let your freedom, I think, I forget where now, you guys will know the reference, but that Paul says don't let your freedom be the stumbling block for someone else.
Kurt Bjorklund: Well and the issue again, just if you're really going to try to be faithful to the text, with alcohol, and I think, again, this is the same thing with the Doobie and see how many more words we can drop. I know you already used that one, but is the issue of, so when is it, when am I drunk? And I think again, the answer there isn't where am I, how many drinks, this or that because then what I'm doing is I'm saying there's a line, how close can I get to it without actually breaking it? And I think that's the wrong approach. The right approach is to say I want to stay far enough away from the line that it's never in question. And I think that's in terms of a relationship with alcohol or relationship with, if he's talking to kids who haven't been married and they say, well where's the line?
Kurt Bjorklund: Well, the issue isn't, let's define the line and dance on the edge and dangle over. It's stay a bit back. So that you have something left and so you've honored something bigger. And I think with alcohol, I would say that's probably, again, a biblical way of thinking about that is to say the issue isn't how finely can I define being drunk so that I can say I didn't do it. It's to say that's there for my own protection. God saying, I gave you something to enjoy, but I want you to have some healthy boundaries around it.
Joel Haldeman: And I think going back to the question about hash, is that ... I think you're right on, that what is, is there an amount of marijuana that you can smoke or consume, I should say, that is not equivalent to being drunk. And I think that's a big question because drunkenness is a sin. Is there, and I had this discussion with my life group the other night and there were guys in the room that were much more experienced with this than me and some of them, their answer was no. Like when you have pot, you get high and there is no a little bit high. There's just high. So I just, I maybe the three of us aren't the, maybe we need to do some personal research before we can answer that. It was a joke. Just joking.
Joel Haldeman: But really that's, I think that's what this comes down to is, if we're saying the alcohol is okay, but drunkenness is not, is there an amount of weed that you can have that's okay. And then is there a line that you cross that's not okay? Is that-
Mike Hatch: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I think if there's some someone with more experience that we can draw from their experience a little bit to find out more about that, I think that'd be beneficial.
Kurt Bjorklund: By the way, that was a low key plug for life group. You know, life groups at Orchard Hill. We're hitting all the subjects.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah. And there's a guy in that group that said, he said, I don't want to have anything that's going to stop me from running the race to pursue Christ. And he said, I don't mind if other people drink or have a beer around me, but he doesn't want to. Let me throw out this question. How do I support a relative who has occurrence or a past addiction? There's a alcohol or a drug. Either they're in recovery or they currently struggle with it.
Mike Hatch: That's a great question. The first thing that comes to my mind is, do they want supported? That's probably one of the hardest things because sometimes to support somebody who's in an addiction, caught up in an addiction of some sort, sometimes I've been around parents who've had to kick their kids out of the house and that was how they supported them. And it put that person in a place where they experienced the consequences and the pain became greater than the pain involved in changing, I think is how they often say it in recovery programs. And so I think, do they want supported, in what way do they want supported? And so it gets a little bit more nuanced. So why are you smiling?
Kurt Bjorklund: Sorry. For those of you not from Western Pennsylvania to be supported, we would use a verb. Do they want supported? I'm sorry, Pittsburgh. They want to be supported. If you're not from Pittsburgh-
Mike Hatch: Wait, is that just guilty of Pittsburgh east?
Kurt Bjorklund: A little bit.
Mike Hatch: Oh my gosh.
Kurt Bjorklund: No, it's all good, man. It's just made me laugh. So yes, thank you.
Mike Hatch: It's good to be corrected by the cheese head.
Kurt Bjorklund: It's a great question to say, do they want to be supported because if they don't then there isn't. But you know, a lot of times there's so much shame when somebody gets to that point that loving somebody, regardless of whether they stumble or not, not having conditions, I mean you're really, what you're doing is you're embodying and trying to live the gospel saying, okay, you're being beat by something that doesn't define you. I love you regardless of whether you're beat by this or not, I'll help you, if I can, walk away from, but I'll love you either way.
Kurt Bjorklund: And to your point, Mike, sometimes the way that you help somebody is to not throw a mattress in the pit for them.
Mike Hatch: That's right.
Kurt Bjorklund: And that might mean making them face the consequences of their own choices at times. And that's a hard thing to do, but that, I would say as a parent or a spouse of somebody who's dealing with an addiction, sometimes it's be there, but I'd be very leery of, of softening the negative consequences because negative consequences are what teach us the lessons we need to learn. And especially if you're a parent dealing with kids, I've seen a lot of parents and their kid will make a mistake and the first thing they'll do is try to soften the blow and not just in this arena, in any arena. And the wisest thing a parent can do is actually not soften the blow of life, because life teaches you hard lessons. And if you don't learn it there, then when the stakes are much higher, you'll repeat the mistake a lot of times. Yeah.
Joel Haldeman: I think it's important for us to say here that, if you're someone that's listening that, that just pay attention to, if you, smoke pot or consume alcohol, pay attention to it, that being mastered by anything is no fun. And I think what a gift it was for me to be in a life group and sit with a group of men and our task was to, to write down what is something that could shipwreck your faith and your family and your life when you look down the road 10 years. And to be able to say to those guys, alcohol is something that I need to pay attention to and I want your support in, was such a gift. And I think just to be in a group that can support that and help keep healthy boundaries. Anything else that you add to that sort of warning?
Mike Hatch: A supportive community. Being able to be in the light to bring stuff out into the light and yeah, huge.
Joel Haldeman: Yeah.
Mike Hatch: Yeah. That's really good.
Joel Haldeman: Okay, well that's all we got, I guess. If you're torching one up, blazing, you shouldn't do that because it's illegal in Pennsylvania. But this is a good conversation to have and just for absolute clarity, none of us here are saying go out and smoke pot. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what is a complicated issue and is going to be more real especially in the years ahead. So thanks for listening to Ask a Pastor, send any questions to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com.
