Ask a Pastor Ep. 82 - The Dangers of Consumerism

Welcome to Ask a Pastor, a podcast from Orchard Hill Church! Have you ever had a question about the Bible, Faith, or Christianity as a whole? Submit your question and one of our pastors will answer on the program. New episodes every Wednesday.

This episode, Dr. Kurt Bjorklund, Joel Haldeman and George Palombo sit down to have a conversation about the idea of consumerism and materialism, what it means in our culture, the dangers for society and Christians, socialism vs capitalism, and more.

Mentioned in the Podcast

Ask a Pastor Ep. 14 - Immigration, Doubts about Christianity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2zmY0ir_jA
Ask a Pastor Ep. 65 - Politics and Wealth Redistribution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew5jcEMu3XE
Better Message Series in Proverbs: https://subsplash.com/orchardhillchurch/media/ms/+pfzy37w

If you enjoy the podcast, leave us a 5 star review so more people can be blessed by this content. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode!

Podcast Transcript

Joel Haldeman: Hey, welcome to the Ask a Pastor podcast. I'm joined by Kurt and George. George is on our adult ministry team and really excited to get into some questions about both consumerism and capitalism today.

Joel Haldeman: So, George, as a way to just get to know your backstory a little bit. Can you share how you were led into ministry? How you became?

George Palombo: Yeah. I started my career off in the work world in plumbing, and then I ended up... and then I was living in Virginia Beach and got hired by our Sheriff's Department down in Chesapeake and at the same time had an opportunity to come back here and work in law enforcement in Beaver County.

George Palombo: And I thought, let's move back home. And so, I ended up in the Sheriff's office in Beaver County for 30 years. And I had an opportunity to do some pretty cool things in law enforcement that were even related to the ministry field.

George Palombo: And then, when Beaver County offered a 30-year early retirement, as soon as I hit 30 years, they let me go. And I said, "I think it's time to go and invest in formal ministry." So, I went to seminary and ended up at a local church here in the area and through some conversation with Kurt ended up here. Yes.

Joel Haldeman: And before you were working here, before even seminary, I remember you volunteered with our... I think it was with our middle school ministry.

George Palombo: Yes.

Joel Haldeman: Invested in kids.

Kurt Bjorklund: Attended here for years and invested in lots of stuff.

George Palombo: Yeah. We've been around for almost 20 years. Yes.

Kurt Bjorklund: That's awesome.

George Palombo: Yeah. Some music ministry and a little teaching here and there and here I am. Yeah. Pretty cool.

Joel Haldeman: I appreciate your boisterous good mornings and happy spirit in the office.

George Palombo: Oh, we're good. I am the police.

Joel Haldeman: Jumping in on the subject of consumers, and this is obviously a really big deal, because consumerism is the soup that we swim and it's all around us and trying to figure out how to balance, how to be a Christian in that I think is no easy thing. So, how would either of you define consumerism, for somebody who's?

George Palombo: I would probably press the red button and go to... just because there's a red button here. I thought it might be fun.

Kurt Bjorklund: But you're going to have to press, you're going to be careful.

Joel Haldeman: It doesn't count, unless you did.

George Palombo: It actually beeps. That's beautiful.

Kurt Bjorklund: Go ahead George. We'll let you take question again.

George Palombo: What is consumer?

Joel Haldeman: Yeah. What is consumer? How do you think of it?

George Palombo: We're all consumers. I mean, it's an unavoidable, like you said, our co-works exaggerated in our culture with being consumers. It's unavoidable. I mean, there was no way that we can... I mean we've, even since we've been in the room here, we've consumed lots of air. We're using up oxygen and it's just an unavoidable thing.

George Palombo: But I think when the ism, it gets attached to nearly anything. I know we're going to go on and talk about capitalism, then it becomes a way of life. Something that becomes all consuming, becomes a philosophy for us. And it begins to be what drives us. And whatever's in our heart then begins to drive the way we respond to it.

Joel Haldeman: I think what's difficult about this conversation is that there is a difference between capitalism and consumerism, but there's a lot of, there's a decent amount of overlap. And capitalism is this economic theory where the means of making profit, the means of production, I should say, are owned individually, they're not owned socially, they're not owned by the government.

Joel Haldeman: But in order for capitalism to work, people have to buy things, right? So, we have to be... so, capitalism requires consumers. And I think that's obvious. And I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. I think I see capitalism as a positive thing.

Joel Haldeman: But what consumerism is, is this theory that the amount that we consume has to increase more and more in order for us to be happy. And that's where I feel like that definitely comes into conflict with Christianity. My comment on capitalism, I don't know. Do you have any, any thoughts on just what to say?

Kurt Bjorklund: I would even not just say there's not anything negative with it. I would go so far as to say, I believe that there's a positive. Biblically, if you go back to creation, you would say when God created the earth and said, placed Adam and Eve in it and said be fruitful and multiply, what he was doing was saying be productive. So, I would even say it's part of the creation mandate to say, "If I'm bringing a product or a service to the world that helps the world to thrive, then that is a good thing." And we do use money as a means to trade services.

Kurt Bjorklund: So, I don't think that there's... in fact, I wouldn't just say it's not negative, it's positive to be a part of the system, and sometimes Christians can get the idea of, "I should be out of the system, because the system's corrupt." There is corruption within the system from people, systemic issues that create real challenges.

Joel Haldeman: But the corruption in every system.

Kurt Bjorklund: Absolutely. So, the idea of bringing a service or a product to bear, I think has roots back as far as the creation mandate.

Joel Haldeman: And even throughout the Old Testament, like when we read law codes, it's obvious that there was this aspect of capitals. I don't know if you call Old Testament is real capitalist economy, but even reading through the Book of Proverbs, it's the hard work brings a profit, and you own your field God, God owns the field, I guess in it, and it's possession reverts back to the family.

Joel Haldeman: But the interesting thing though that I think about capitalism is money and the moving of money or the moving of goods from me to you to George to me is the engine of capitalism. And the more that money moves, the more the society thrives. And so, we want that engine to spin as fast as possible. And when the economy gets stuck, we have stimulus plans where the government tries to infuse money, so that people spend money, because when people spend money, it benefits everyone.

Joel Haldeman: And that's where that comes very close to what consumerism is, because it's saying you need to consume in order for this whole thing to work.

George Palombo: Right. I think it presents especially difficult challenges for Christians, because in a closed system there's almost no way to avoid consumerism being the all-consuming as it were almost an irony in it that a consumerism would take over and be the natural outcome.

George Palombo: But for Christians, like you said, dating back even into the Old Testament, I think it's in the Book of Deuteronomy that the wealth is given to us by God's hand, himself. So, as Christians, I think it certainly presents extra challenges for us to live inside that world system that is naturally happening as a result of sin, and to try to reconcile some of those things in the economy that we live in and that we attempt to thrive in.

Joel Haldeman: One of the things that I've done over the past couple of years is prayed the Lord's prayer as I drive to work. And there's like five categories of prayer and the Lord's prayer, and one is, "Give us today our daily bread." And what I'm always trying to pray in that moment is everything that I have is a gift from you. Everything that I expect to receive is a gift from you, and you don't owe it to me. And I think I need to keep taking on that attitude that this life isn't something that God owes to me. It's all just a gift from God.

Joel Haldeman: And in a moment, I always try to remind myself of this. In a moment, the economy could come crashing down, it could totally wreck my wife's business, people could be in such a bad financial situation that they stopped giving to the church, and then, "We're out of jobs."

Joel Haldeman: And so, just to say I depend on God today for all of my needs. I don't know, that's just one way that I think of trying to break out of consumerism.

George Palombo: I was just telling my son, Marco, on the way out the door this morning, Amanda was trying to teach him some biblical lesson and he said, "I don't want anything to do with the Bible." And I immediately looked at him and I said, "Marco, you do know that the air that you're breathing right now belongs to the Lord. And if you say that you want nothing to do with him... the earth is the Lord and everything in it belongs to him.

George Palombo: So, again, we do, we struggle, with how do we reconcile utilizing the things that God has given us and sharing those things with other people and navigating a world that is just treacherously in love with things and materialism. And as a result, we end up in debt, because we want to have things... our sinful nature wants to have things that it simply can't afford to have.

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, because we live in our culture, I think we probably have a blind spot on this issue, because what we do is, we look at other people who have more and we say, "Well, they're consumers. I'm just doing the bare minimum." But when you look at the history of civilizations, and even in America, just by virtue of where we live, we are among the most wealthy people who've ever walked this planet.

Kurt Bjorklund: And so, there's a tendency to be overly critical and give ourselves a pass on our own consumeristic impulses. And I know I'm guilty of that, where you think, "Oh, I only have so much money for this or that." And it's absurd, if you look at it given the history of humanity, but it's hard to put ourselves backward into any other society. But if you, again, just look at it globally in that way, I think history will look back at American society and say, "Wow, those were some of the wealthiest people who ever lived and they were extremely obsessive about their stuff." And I don't know that that's a good thing. And I think all cultures have had those blind spots. I think that's ours.

Joel Haldeman: I appreciate that. And I know you've said that in the past. And I guess what I've remembered you saying in the past particularly is that, later generations of Christians will look back on this generation of Christians and say, that was the thing that was just not in line with their faith, with their spending habits and their consuming habits. And because, I'm always trying to think like it's easy to look back and say, "Wow, in that generation they totally miss that." But that also always begs the question, what is it going to be for us? Because we certainly will have a blind spot.

George Palombo: Yeah. Especially, when we're in it, right? We're living it subjectively. And I think to Kurt's point, it's easy for us to say, "Well, I'm doing it right, but those people over there, they've got it wrong."

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, it's hard not to adopt the cultural values. You said it, while we're here swimming in a soup of consumerism. And so, it's hard not to say, "Well, sure my car runs, but wouldn't it be nice if I had a slightly better car?" Sure, I've got a TV, but wouldn't it be better if I had a bigger TV? Sure, I took this vacation, but wouldn't it be better if I took a more expensive vacation? And it's hard not to fall into the same mindset that says, "My happiness, my contentment is just one more purchase, one more thing away in terms of where that that goes." Yeah.

Joel Haldeman: And the interesting thing is that, I think that our companies have all adopted this mindset of, "Whatever we sell to you, it can't last for a long time. It has to wear down. It has to become antiquated, so that you throw it out, so that you continue coming back to us to buy more." And I guess that's a good business model. Keep people buying money but are spending their money.

Joel Haldeman: But at the same time, we are heaping up piles, and I think this is something that we're all starting to come to terms with, across the board. We are heaping up piles of things that we've taken resources out of the earth, we've turned them into televisions and then we're throwing them out and they're going somewhere.

Joel Haldeman: And figuring out, how do we... like there's an end point to that. Humanity cannot continue to grow and grow and grow and we continue to buy a new TV every five years. There has to be a tipping point on that.

Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah, absolutely. We think, because it gets hauled away in a truck that shows up in front of our house that it's taken care of somehow magically, mythically. But yeah, it all ends up somewhere. And you're right, the appliances are a good example. Like I was saying about this the other day, we had to replace an appliance, had to, because fixing it was going to cost almost as much as a new one, so, why would we not get a new one? Because, then it will probably last longer from our... so, it was probably the right economic decision for us.

Joel Haldeman: Get a warranty.

Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. All that stuff. But I thought about and I thought my parents, I can't ever remember them getting a new appliance. Once they had them, they had them. So, I don't know if they were made differently or if the cost was such that... but in my era, you think of appliances is, "Oh, I've got a reasonable number of years out of them. So, yeah. Okay. Trash it and we get a new one." And that is part of our consumeristic mindset.

Joel Haldeman: Yeah. Yeah. So, what are the dangers for believers? Well, let's start here. What are the dangers for our society as a whole that consumerism presents?

George Palombo: Well, I would say that some of the dangers is that the society can just... it closes in on itself. There's just almost to some of Kurt's points, and yours, just these things all have to go somewhere that there's waste, and then it causes conflict around the world. This culture over here calls us wasteful over here, but yet we watch how they don't take care of what we see pictures of piles of computers over in China, on the beach. But yet here we are, we're a terribly wasteful society in our own right.

George Palombo: So, it certainly causes conflict in the philosophies of one culture over and against another culture. And so, I don't think that greed is... it's certainly not native to those who are the haves, that our greedy nature also with those of who are the have nots as well.

Kurt Bjorklund: Yeah. It's interesting when you think about like beach and China... with computers. And the truth is, when it's time for a new computer, we don't really care that much. Or we would act differently as a society, until it'll affect us. And there's a lack of compassion for the world on a whole based through individual decisions, which I'm guilty of. So, I'm not pointing a finger, because I consume, the appliance, it's going to go away and I don't know where it's going to go.

George Palombo: It's going to go to that place.

Kurt Bjorklund: They'll ask, it's going to go that magical place somewhere, where somebody else is going to take care of it. Here is something that is from the Bible and you asked for society on a whole, I think this is society and Christians. And I think ultimately, the answers are very similar, because spiritual peril is spiritual peril. Jesus was talking and he gave a parable about this to a man who said, "Hey, tell my brother to divide my inheritance." So, he came, this is Luke 12 and said, "I want you to tell my brother to give me the money that I should get." So, he was looking for this. Jesus said, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you? Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed. Life does not consist in the abundance of possession."

Kurt Bjorklund: So pretty simple, straight forward he says, "Hey, this is the deal." And then he says this, "The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest." He thought to himself, "What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops." Then he said, "This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and I'll build bigger ones, and there I'll store my surplus grain." And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." But God said to him, "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?" And then he says this, "This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.

Kurt Bjorklund: And I think the real peril of materialism is it provides a sense of security and significance where we stop seeking it in something else.

Kurt Bjorklund: And so, if I have enough stuff, I feel like, "Okay, I can live out my days and comfort, therefore, I'm secure." And don't take into account that the real accounting of my life is not in how much stuff I have, but it's standing before God. And we can get blinded to that if we're doing well in life. And it's the same thing with significance.

Kurt Bjorklund: And so, that parable I think really speaks so clearly to our society and to Christians, because Christians are just as much a part of this way of thinking. Yes, they may have punched their ticket if you want to use that analogy to eternal life, because of trusting Jesus as savior, but a lot of times are doing just as much saying, "My life is about my stuff as it is about anything else."

George Palombo: I know that one of the questions that you had thrown out was, what are the implications and the opportunities for believers? I think that, speaks to that strongly when the culture has become that it gives believers the opportunity to share that there is something deeper that is available, because we don't live in a closed system. We live in God's system.

George Palombo: But non-believers don't see it that way. They see it as, "I want to get more, I need the new thing, I need the better thing, the next thing is King." All the way down the line and it certainly opens up and presents opportunities for us to share something that is far exceedingly, more rich to non-believers and we're called to do that. That's our mandate, is to live the gospel with our words and share it with the world and to be obedient to that commission that Christ gave us.

Joel Haldeman: I think that the church, we have something that's so amazing and like to be able to... when we have a taste of that, it makes the new phone or the new whatever just seems so much less value. I mean this is our world, like a new iPhone comes out and everybody's like, "Ah, when can I get it? When is it going to be mine?"

Joel Haldeman: But like we have this experience where, I don't know, like I'll go to a life group or I have men's Bible study on Thursday mornings with some guys that I know really well. And we just like support each other with the gospel. Like some of the most meaningful community that I've had in my whole life.

Joel Haldeman: And when we can like, let the world have a taste of that, it makes the, "Oh, I need to buy, I need to do, I need to consume", so much less of an urge, because we have something that's even better than that.

Joel Haldeman: And so, I think that we do have this opportunity to influence the world by showing the world that we have something that's even better than consuming.

George Palombo: I would say, we're probably going to have even more of an opportunity to do that as we lose... and I think our government and our culture is lending in this direction that we're going to lose more and more of our resources. Our taxes are going to continue to go up and we're going to have to become better and better stewards of the things that we do have, of the things that we do have an access of, whether our access is 74% of our income now, perhaps later, it's going to be 60%. And we're going to have to make decisions based on what we have left over at the end of the day.

George Palombo: And I think that is going to decrease for us. Especially, if... you asked me earlier, would you vote for a socialist? You're going down that path. Are we permitted to use that?

Kurt Bjorklund: So, how did you end up to go there? You have to go there George. Go there George, you're already there.

George Palombo: He asked me, "Can you vote for a socialist?" And I thought-

Kurt Bjorklund: This is off camera take?

Joel Haldeman: Yeah.

George Palombo: I hope so.

Kurt Bjorklund: You hope you can?

George Palombo: As long as you-

Kurt Bjorklund: Or you hope you can go?

George Palombo: I thought you were going to dig me with the... when I said living out the gospel, you knew I had to turn and make sure it was with our words. And I would say, "No." I would not, unless the person on the other side where someone really treacherous.

Joel Haldeman: It's always a comparative thing.

George Palombo: Well, again, but if you put that ism on the end of anything, I would say Jesus agrees that we ought to give to people, but nowhere in scripture does Jesus ever condone government taking from those who have and giving it to the have nots.

George Palombo: So, I mean, we're going to have to make decisions and we ought to be giving as believers. And I think as we give of the resources that we have, we're going to have more and more opportunity.

Kurt Bjorklund: So, what if somebody says this, "I'm about to get a proposition."

George Palombo: No. It's going to defer now.

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, it's an interesting question, what if somebody says, "Well, since the government is taking so much of my money and distributing it to the poor, doesn't that count as all of my generosity and almsgiving? Why would I need to do anymore? Because I'm already giving 20 some percent depending on what bracket you're in, 10%, 30%. I'm already giving a lot of money away?" Based on that, would that be a legitimate argument for somebody to say, "I don't need to do anything else then?"

George Palombo: I would say that, as believers, we're told, give according to what is in your heart. And if that's what's in your heart and you believe that you have fulfilled, now I would say, "Yeah." Then that's okay. If that's what you truly believe that God has allowed you... go ahead.

Kurt Bjorklund: It's just-

George Palombo: That's not legal.

Kurt Bjorklund: Give according to what-

George Palombo: To what?

Kurt Bjorklund: Wait, wait. Give according to what's in your heart. Can you cite a verse on that, that?

George Palombo: That we are to give according to what?

Kurt Bjorklund: And I'm saying, can you show me, because I don't think that's in the Bible.

George Palombo: That we ought to give according to what's in our heart.

Joel Haldeman: It's in our heart.

George Palombo: No. No, I don't have a verse.

Kurt Bjorklund: I don't think it exists. And so, and I'm not sure, I'm just saying that that whole notion, I think or as the Bible says, give cheerfully-

Joel Haldeman: And give according to our means.

Kurt Bjorklund: Yes. Give according to... so, if you can't give cheerfully, but I think to say-

George Palombo: I will start giving the 10%?

Kurt Bjorklund: To say give according to what's in my heart, I think there is something more than just what's in my heart, because that almost makes it, "Well, hey, whatever you feel you do." And I do think there's some outline about what we do, but it does talk about being cheerful. But I've also heard people use that as a reason and they'll say, "Well, since I can't be cheerful, I won't give." Well, I don't think that's the point.

Kurt Bjorklund: The point of it is to say, "Don't put yourself under compulsion or guilt to give, but get to a point where you can understand that it's all God's and that I'm going to respond with some portion of a gift."

Kurt Bjorklund: So, if I told you, you have little boys at this point... when my boys were little, if I went to them and I said, "I'm going to give you $100." That'd be a lot of money to a little boy. And if I said, "But in giving you $100, I want you to give 10 back to the family, a gas fund or something." They'd probably joyfully do that, because they'd be like, "I get 90, I'm giving you 10." And I'm not advocating for the tide in this instance I do on a whole. But my point is the idea of that is to say get your mind right sized about giving I think more than it is saying, "I can decide and if I don't feel good about it, I don't do it" in terms of the stipulation.

George Palombo: I would certainly agree. So, I would retract my statement by giving from the heart, because if you remember, I gave you the video of Marco and we use that from the stage once, and I would say, you're, right. If we're giving according to what's in our heart, the chances are pretty good, we're going to give nothing, because our hearts just really aren't naturally inclined to give. And I think that our sinful condition does speak to that.

Joel Haldeman: We're going back to your original question. I would say, and I've been trying to figure out an appropriate way to say this, that still communicates the severity of how I let us say it. The government does an awful job of like when they take our tax money to help people who are living in poverty, I think they do a horrendous job of trying to lift people out of poverty. And I've seen that firsthand. I've seen that through people that I know, or it's like, this is not encouraging these people to... and when I say these people, I'm thinking of a specific person not encouraging that to change their life, to get them back into the workforce.

Joel Haldeman: And so, I think there are organizations that do a really great job of that. And so, I feel, really great about supporting some of those organizations. And then, ultimately, we just believe that especially in giving through an organization that promotes the gospel, that the gospel is ultimately where people's hearts change, and that's how we can end corruption, and that's how we can deal with money that gets sent from our country to other countries and it disappears and people are getting wealthy and it's not helping the larger issue. Ultimately, through people coming to know Jesus, is how some of those issues change.

George Palombo: Yeah, these are big issues. I mean, ultimately, these are hard issues. And that's why they're so difficult to navigate in our hearts are dark and they're sinful and we have to ask the Lord constantly, which is why, I know I say this all the time, I love that we're in a church here, that we hear the gospel over and over and over again, because it's so foreign and alien to our natural selves that we need to hear it constantly.

Joel Haldeman: It is hard. And even as you're talking about computers washing up on beaches, there's this part of me that thinks... but capitalism, which is part of all of this has lifted billions of people out of poverty and it's my buying that new computer that is fueling that system.

Kurt Bjorklund: Absolutely.

Joel Haldeman: But that's a tension with the-

Kurt Bjorklund: And even the country that's taking the computers is doing it out of economic self-interest. It was better for them to take trash computers and let them go into their landfill than it was to not. So, in that sense, economic theory wise, capitalism is actually the purest form of people making decisions that are based on their self-interest. Because you're constantly saying, like that's the argument with the sweatshop thing and some third world country.

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, the reason somebody takes that job is, because it's better than any other alternative they have. Now that doesn't make it morally, right? I'm not suggesting that, but I'm saying from a purely economic theory, the reason somebody can work for that, like you said, "I'll pay you 25 cents an hour to work in a factory." And you'll say, "Of course not." Because you live in America where you have more money on welfare than you would have doing that. But somebody in another country would say, "That's a good deal. I will take that, because without that I can't eat today."

Kurt Bjorklund: And so, even a sweatshop ultimately provides a service for people. Now again, I'm not saying it's morally or ethically, right, but that's part of the economic engine.

Kurt Bjorklund: So, let me come back to the question you asked. Can you vote for a socialist? Because I think this is actually interesting in this context, because we are in a political season. And there is an implication from a spiritual standpoint and how it ties to the economy. Because I've even heard some people say, "Well, one of the reasons I can support the current administration is because of how good the economy is and how much that means for the good of everybody.

Kurt Bjorklund: So, how much should economic theory play into the political decisions that people make in their supportive different parties?

Joel Haldeman: So, I have a strong opinion on this. So, and I think we need to take this out of the category of their candidates and they have personalities and we all feel something about their personalities, because you're asking a question about economic theory. And I have a party affiliation when it comes to politics and I've heard a lot of people say like, "How can you be loyal to a particular party?" And the reason that I feel loyalty to a particular party, is because I have a particular political theory and that party has a political theory and those theories are in line with each other.

Joel Haldeman: And so, it's not just about, "Do I like the person? Do they take the right stances that I want them to take?" It's about, "Do they subscribe to the same political theory?"

Joel Haldeman: And so, I think that economic questions a good one, because I have an economic theory and there are certain theories that I wouldn't vote for. Now, there are some issues that will outweigh those, but I think that there are still important.

George Palombo: Are you saying that it seems to you is... what I'm maybe I'm hearing is that if a person is an avowed socialist, they probably don't share many of the beliefs that you have that are ancillary to the monetary idea of what socialism?

Joel Haldeman: I'm saying that issues arise and we've done a podcast on immigration. And the way that the immigration thing is portrayed to us is, "Do you want people in cages or do you want to... let's see, how do I do this in a way that's, I'm trying to... on the one hand, we get this picture of people that are in cages and the Republican party supports people in cages, on the other hand, and that's unfair, right? And on the other hand, you get this picture that the democratic party just wants to have open board, "Let everybody come on in and they can all have a free healthcare and we'll just take care of them." And both of those pictures are unfair, right?

Joel Haldeman: And so, the issue becomes... your stance on the issue sometimes becomes about the pictures that you see and how it's portrayed. What I'm saying is, I have political theory that matches up with one of those parties. And that theory, regardless of what it looks like, both of those parties and their approach to immigration can pursue their approach and it can look hideous and it can look ugly and you can take pictures of it and put it on the news and it can look awful.

Joel Haldeman: But what I'm saying is, I want to step behind that and say, "What is the theory behind this and what are we trying to accomplish as a government?" I didn't communicate that very well.

George Palombo: I think part of that is the fact that we live in a soundbite generation. It's easy to make a syllogism that goes something like, "Jesus is for helping the poor. Socialism helps the poor. Therefore, Jesus is for socialism." And people will make that syllogism. And It's easy to say those things. And there's some merit at face value when you look at that. But it is a non-sequitur. Everything in that syllogism doesn't logically follow out to its logical ends.

George Palombo: So, in a soundbite generation, you try to make arguments with people and you have 15 seconds to make the argument that they've asserted.

Kurt Bjorklund: That's well put in. And what's interesting is all-

George Palombo: Why need one after that?

Kurt Bjorklund: It's more complex than we want to make it or have time for. Because what we want to do is we want to click through our news feed and very quickly say, "Give me 15 seconds to understand how China's economy works and why they're protesting and Hong Kong." And all of a sudden you say, "Oh, if I can understand it in 15 seconds, it's too hard." So, give me that syllogism or something really quickly, so I can say, "I got it." And unfortunately, it does take more in.

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, the part of the thing that I find fascinating with every election cycle is how Christians end up so all over the place. I know there's an easy answer that people say, "Well, there's the religious right, the religious left."

Kurt Bjorklund: But I don't see it that simply. I see a lot more diversity among Christian people. And I think some of it does go down to the... some of it is people are just following the soundbites in the ease of what can we do? But then there are legitimate differences in terms of what makes sense given all of the competing issues that exist to say, "Well, how does, if I hold this to be true and this to be true?", that appear on opposite ends of the spectrum or indifferent parties, "How do I weigh and balance those priorities when it all comes down?"

Joel Haldeman: Right? Especially, when nobody runs as a centrist anymore. Like it's, we're going far left or we're going far right. And those are your options. And so, of course this is going to divide and people are going to pick camps and it's going to feel crappy.

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, I heard this a while ago and it stuck with me, because I actually think this is true in church world increasingly as well. I'll explain that in just a second. But somebody said that there was a tipping point, probably the Barack Obama election of '08, maybe a little sooner, where instead of candidates always running to win their primaries and then pivoting to the middle, that used to be the traditional wisdom. So, you'd run, you'd have to run a little far to one side or the other. You would certainly then pivot to the middle to try to capture the middle and win the election.

Kurt Bjorklund: But now what's happening, is people are staying and maybe even going farther to their base to try to energize their base. And you certainly saw this with the election of Trump, where what he figured out was, "If I can energize the base, I don't ever need to pivot to the middle."

Kurt Bjorklund: And I think how that impacts church is increasingly people can choose their own niche in terms of what they want to listen to. And what I mean by that, is you want to hear a podcast on somebody who says, "I'm a Reformed, Charismatic, Pedobaptist who believes in consubstantiation." At 17 other things, you can find that person and listen to exactly their take. And you no longer need to say, "Well, what is in the centrist position?"

Kurt Bjorklund: And what that'll mean in church and in politics, is that people will be coming increasingly segmented, rather than saying, "Hey, I want to go someplace where there's a middle ground. And I may not agree with everything, but I'm part of a community that has middle ground." And you're seeing that in politics as well. And so, I don't know what that has to do with our topic.

George Palombo: I thought it was interesting. Sounded good.

Kurt Bjorklund: You can buzz me.

George Palombo: I would say this. I know our time's probably coming close to a close. But I know that right now we're going through a study of the Book of Proverbs that has plenty to say, that I'm sure that you're going to address over the incoming weeks concerning issues of money and of how we are to be good stewards of the things that we do have and how do we apply biblical wisdom to those issues.

George Palombo: So, I appreciate that we are in a church here that the Orchard Hill Church community cares about those things, that we don't see them simplistically, that these are things that need to be hammered out. And we're forged out on God's word, and that's not always an easy thing.

George Palombo: And so, applying those things to our lives is difficult often, because it hurts.

Kurt Bjorklund: So, let me come full circle here and just ask you guys. What do you do in your own life today to try not to be overly greedy consumeristic? I mean, if we know that that's a potential blind spot, we live in the culture, what do you do to try to check that?

Joel Haldeman: I think learning to develop contentment, I think is probably at the heart of discipleship today. Like that's got to be one of the most pressing discipleship issues in our day. And yeah. that's the question that I'd like to ask, is how do we develop contentment?

Joel Haldeman: I think there's a couple of ways that we can go about that. One, is just being thankful for all things and recognizing the blessing of the car that starts up and the phone that does in fact to make a phone call without feeling like you need the lane shift assist or way. And not that there's anything wrong with those. I hope that the next vehicle I buy has that, that's a good technology. But just to learn to be thankful for what we do have.

Joel Haldeman: And as we've talked here, being able to step out of our own skin and our own day and say, "Whoa, wait a second. From a global perspective, I have easy access to vaccines. I have easy access to antibiotics, clean water. My house is heated. When I go home today, my house will be the same temperature as when I left."

Kurt Bjorklund: And it's a palace compared to people, historically who've lived. I mean that's a humbling thought when you think... if you live in an average house, you live in a palace compared to people in history.

George Palombo: That's right.

Joel Haldeman: And it maybe a slightly-

George Palombo: Even today.

Joel Haldeman: Yeah. And maybe a slightly different take here on taxes. But I've come to see over the past couple of years what like I've tried to be thankful when I pay my taxes and when I pay the gas bill and the electric bill. The gas and electric, especially like, "Ah, what a convenience." Like it is worth every penny that we pay when we get those bills.

Joel Haldeman: But on taxes, man, if you've ever paved your driveway, what a bill that is. And to know that I can just pull out of my driveway and get here and anywhere in the United States, I feel that's worth the price that I'm paying. So, I understand if you're negative on taxes, I get that.

George Palombo: There's some scripture on the idea of being content, we read in First Timothy and Verse 16 it says, "Godliness with contentment is great gain." So, to be content with godliness, the Apostle Paul tells us is great gain, because we brought nothing into this world and we're leaving this world with nothing.

George Palombo: So, I think the idea of you saying that, being grateful, just making sure we understand what we ought to be and have gratitude for is a great discipline for contentedness.

Joel Haldeman: And I would add to that. I think this is one of the most, maybe one of the most important verses that I've memorized is just a couple of verses after that. It says, and this is the ESV, "As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, not to be proud, not to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us for everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up treasures for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life."

Joel Haldeman: There is so much in there that... so, I've just tried to remind myself anytime that I have something that's good to thank God for it and recognize that I don't need to feel guilty about this. Yes, I am wealthy and I don't need to feel guilty about that. But I needed to turn around to God and say, "God has richly provided me with everything for enjoyment." But in that, I need to be rich towards others. I need to do good works. I need to set my hope on God and not on wealth, because it's ridiculously uncertain and I need to recognize that there's nothing that I can buy that will bring true life. That it is my hope in Christ that gives true life.

Joel Haldeman: I've been praying with my kids at nighttime and this has been a repeated thing that I'm hoping is like getting through to him. And I pray, "God, help us to remember that there's nothing that we can buy in this life that will make us more happy, but only you can make us truly happy." And I think that's not for just for an eight-year-old. That's something that we all need.

Kurt Bjorklund: It's a good nightly reminder.

Joel Haldeman: Yeah. What do you think Kurt?

Kurt Bjorklund: Those are great things and I love that passage.

Kurt Bjorklund: One thing I've been trying to do in recent years is each year pick something and say, "I have enough of that thing and then not buy anything in that arena or spend, unless I really have to for some reason." And I've just found that to be a helpful discipline just to say, "I don't always have to be on the lookout for the newer, better thing in every area of my life." And I've just found that that's just been a helpful discipline just to say, "Okay, I've got enough in that area."

Kurt Bjorklund: And it's interesting how much it has taken almost, not a stress, but it has added a contentment, which you would think it would do the opposite. But it because you would think, "Well, if I've decided I'm not going to improve this area in any way for at least a year that it actually makes me more content with what I have." Rather than constantly saying, "Well, if I upgraded, if I did this, if I did that."

Kurt Bjorklund: And so, that's just been my own little spiritual discipline in this area just to say I want to not always be looking for how I can upgrade.

Joel Haldeman: Yeah. Yeah.

George Palombo: I would say too, that if we look back, if we look back in our own lives, think of the things that you wanted so desperately at some point in your life. And think about how many of those things do I actually still have? Which of those things are were lasting? And even if they were, they've worn down. None of those things are getting better. Everything is wearing down.

Kurt Bjorklund: There are adult happy meals. The happy meal for a kid, you get them a happy meal and they're so happy when they get it and they get some cheap little junk toy that gets you to eat bad fast food. And two hours later, the toy is broken. It's lost. It's no good. And they're not happy two days later, because they had the happy meal. The happy meal upgraded you for a little bit over the food by itself, and you thought this is happiness.

Kurt Bjorklund: But ultimately, most of the things we get are adult happy meals there. There are things that you bring in and you say, "Huh, well, okay, I thought a bigger house would make me happier. I thought a new car, I thought this, I thought that." And at the end of the day, there are good things. There are things to be enjoyed, celebrated, even pursued. But to understand that they don't actually bring what they promised to bring. And I think that is the key.

George Palombo: We're always looking for the happier meal. Even if we like what we have, as soon as we see something somebody else has, we're looking for the happier meal.

Kurt Bjorklund: Well, think about vacation. You go on a vacation and vacations are great, should be enjoyed. But at least for me, I go on a vacation and as soon as I'm done, I'm thinking, "What's the next one?"

Joel Haldeman: That's great.

Kurt Bjorklund: Or I'm thinking, "It would have been better if it had been longer." And so, you're instantly in this thing of it wasn't enough. And it isn't just that. Again, I think that's just the nature of the soul, but you have to fight that or what was intended to bring satisfaction doesn't bring satisfaction at the end of the day.

Joel Haldeman: So, spend your money on gold and guns and-

George Palombo: That's another conversation. We can turn [crosstalk 00:46:43] right off.

Joel Haldeman: Thank you for tuning in to Ask a Pastor. This is an election year and send your questions about politicians. George will answer all of them to askapastor@orchardhillchurch.com.